A bug that prevents pro music making on PC's. (on practically all TI OS)

    Now this has come to the stage, where I feel that other PC users need to know this aswell.


    I have tried to help ACCESS fix this behind closed doors, because the way I see it this is mostly embarassing for a synth developer - and I have had the most respect for this company.


    When the VIRUS TI is connected to a PC, it does not, and has not ever been able to remain its pitch - so the pitch will not remain constant, during a songmaking session.


    Everyone here can test this for themselves.


    1. Open Cubase
    2. Set Oscillator balance so, that there is only osc 1 playing.
    3. Set Oscillator to Sine wave, and play that from as high a key as possible.
    4. (while pressing that high not) Open Devices (Go to Devices Setup) -> VST Audio System - menu, press "Reset ASIO Driver" some times, [..1-15 times will tick the Virus TI off its tuning, and it will start to wander all over..].


    Now this is the reason you neither might not have been able to finish your songs with PC - or are not satisfied with the results.


    I noticed this only due to having to constantly finetune and retune the instruments in my songs..


    This does not ever happen on a MAC and it does not happen ever when the USB cord is not used (..standard MIDI..) - so we are talking about something serious.


    I have emailed about this to ACCESS for about a year now, and am only met with ignorance and the unwillingness to sort this thing out. They also have stated that they are not either able or willing to fix this, so that PC users could make music with constant tuning of their synth.


    Their official explanation has held 2 variations.


    1. This is "phase drifting". (Only phase drifting for a single sine wave is virtually impossible)


    2. This is analogue emulation algorithm (which for some reason does not happen on a MAC or in Stand Alone mode)


    This resembles the companys overall attitude, and ignorance concerning this thing.


    For clarification and instructions how to reproduce, see this video


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5YW8zVahmk


    ..A synth needs to hold its tune - this is the most basic functionality..


    We are talking about a sword, that does not hold itself together during a real batttle. We are also talking about a guitar, that cannot hold its tune, no matter what strings are put into it. We are talking about a vase that cannot hold all the water inside it, when there has been water in it for a time sufficient enough . And we are talking about a race car, that cannot be driven on a race track...

    DAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



    I want to hear what Access has to say about this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I'm a bit confused here - why on earth would you want to be resetting the ASIO like this in the first place? This is surely something which only needs doing if there is a problem - it certainly has nothing to do with 'normal' sequencing, and personally I have never experienced the Virus just going out of tune like this during a session.


    Also, FWIW, I tried reproducing this in SX3.1.1 under Windows, and I couldn't. Resetting the ASIO did sometimes trigger a stuck note, which when doubled up with the previous one caused some kind of phasing effect, but it was cleared easily by re-triggering the note. The overall tuning was fine.

    Zitat von BC

    I'm a bit confused here - why on earth would you want to be resetting the ASIO like this in the first place? This is surely something which only needs doing if there is a problem - it certainly has nothing to do with 'normal' sequencing, and personally I have never experienced the Virus just going out of tune like this during a session.


    Also, FWIW, I tried reproducing this in SX3.1.1 under Windows, and I couldn't. Resetting the ASIO did sometimes trigger a stuck note, which when doubled up with the previous one caused some kind of phasing effect, but it was cleared easily by re-triggering the note. The overall tuning was fine.


    Though I can certainly appreciate where you are coming from as I totally see your point, I do not believe this bug is related to strictly resetting the ASIO device manually at will. I believe this is just a quick method of reproducing the bug for all to see. The resetting of the ASIO device can and certainly does happen during a sesssion. If one changes the buffer size for instance, it gets reset automatically. If one closes a project/closes the program, then reopens it, this also resets the ASIO device. If the Virus itself has not been reset AND decides to not properly 'sync' up after such an occurrence, what you saw in that video can and does occur. Something isn't quite right. I have found personally that either Cubase/soundcard/Virus crash mid session and resetting the ASIO device can sometimes 'jolt' sound back into action which would normally be lost due to the crash. I would hate to find out all my patches will then start drifting and I can't rely on its stability from there on out. I am unsure whether this is something that can be remedied, but it is definitely reproducible, and seems to be dependent on the PC only as on MAC this is not an issue. If Access can do anything to look into, reproduce or fix this 'problem' it certainly wouldn't do any harm.

    Now I've watched your video. Instead of resetting the driver with the "reset" button, select another driver, and then go back to your prefered driver again - Step by step.
    Sometimes you have to do this 3 or 4 times until this works.


    In my expirience with Cubase 4 I have to reset the driver sometimes, caused of a sync issue (timing, fine tuning).
    But if I reset the ASIO driver completely, Virus works beautiful.

    Zitat von Fringe

    Though I can certainly appreciate where you are coming from as I totally see your point, I do not believe this bug is related to strictly resetting the ASIO device manually at will. I believe this is just a quick method of reproducing the bug for all to see. The resetting of the ASIO device can and certainly does happen during a sesssion. If one changes the buffer size for instance, it gets reset automatically. If one closes a project/closes the program, then reopens it, this also resets the ASIO device. If the Virus itself has not been reset AND decides to not properly 'sync' up after such an occurrence, what you saw in that video can and does occur. Something isn't quite right. I have found personally that either Cubase/soundcard/Virus crash mid session and resetting the ASIO device can sometimes 'jolt' sound back into action which would normally be lost due to the crash. I would hate to find out all my patches will then start drifting and I can't rely on its stability from there on out. I am unsure whether this is something that can be remedied, but it is definitely reproducible, and seems to be dependent on the PC only as on MAC this is not an issue. If Access can do anything to look into, reproduce or fix this 'problem' it certainly wouldn't do any harm.


    Definetely so, Fringe.


    This is only to demonstrate the faultness of the Virus TI product, when connected to a PC via USB.


    BC - I am so sad to have to educate pro's out here about these things, and this is not meant as an insult, but I am getting really really pissed about this, since I have to explain to everyone at Access, that Resetting ASIO driver occurs when you for example load VST instruments into the VST mixer, or when you for example add Effects to the VST rack.


    Now this is by no means personally to you - but this is to all the staff at Access, because I am really surprised that the most basic behaviour of the (biggest) sequencer on PC platform, seems to be an unfamiliar issue to many employees at Access.


    Definetely this is only an easy way to demonstrate the obvious fault in the synthline, that is present in 95% of all Virus TI models.


    The reason Access is no more adressing this, is that legally (according to the EU trade laws / customer safety paragraph: )


    Incase there is a fault in the unit, that prevents such usage of the product that it was intended to be used on, and that can be demonstrated to have been present in the product ever since the date of purchase - it does not matter, at which stage (even after the warrancy is over), it is demonstrated to either the seller or the manufacturer - they MUST provide with full refund or a working unit..


    ( edit: this was a free translation of the law, in its Finnish form )


    Now - we are all protected by this law - which is why Access is instead sending lies via email to Thomann, because legally, from a legal standpoint - if they admitted this officially - they would be bound to give money back to EVERY PC USER.


    PS. All I want is a working unit, not to fight over some stupid shit wheter my synth should stay in tune or not..

    I've been using the TI for almost 3 years now and have never had issues with the quality of my sounds and have certainly worked in ways where I would have had this problem. I was able to reproduce this issue on Cubase 5.1.1 and TI OS 4.0.2.01 and have found a painless workaround. This isn't meant to make this any less of a problem, but just to show that you can still "make pro tracks on a PC". I found that simply disabling the TI in the VST Instruments window and then re-enabling it corrects the phasing issue (at least that's what it looks like in Schwa Schope).

    I have been using the TI since before OS2 and have never had any such pitch problems (aside from sample frequency mismatches, which were easily sorted).


    I have used the virus in USB mode during performances and not had issues with pitch - but I perfer to use it in standalone mode for other reasons.

    Zitat von donnydonny

    I've been using the TI for almost 3 years now and have never had issues with the quality of my sounds and have certainly worked in ways where I would have had this problem. I was able to reproduce this issue on Cubase 5.1.1 and TI OS 4.0.2.01 and have found a painless workaround. This isn't meant to make this any less of a problem, but just to show that you can still "make pro tracks on a PC". I found that simply disabling the TI in the VST Instruments window and then re-enabling it corrects the phasing issue (at least that's what it looks like in Schwa Schope).


    I will test your method.


    The problem is Access sending technical Emails to Thomann, about me being crazy for wanting my synth to stay constantly in tune..


    ..wonder if Beethoven or Jimi Hendrix would have been called that, incase they had to demonstrate their case for the developer with a spectrum analyzer..

    Also what is quite repelling, is that Access is considering themselves as being above the international trading laws.


    They know this is the case, that legally they would be bound to repay the full price or give a working unit to someone who has purchased their product., that can be proven to have had an error ever since the date of purchase - and this is why they are in no forums commenting this case anymore.


    Simply sweep it under the floor.


    Well, if this is the case Access, I promise you you are not getting away with this..

    They are right, though. You are crazy.


    Also the fact that the discrepancy can only really be detected on a spectral analyzer which itself could be inaccurate.


    Thank god you arent trying to make music on real instruments, sending a stradivarius back to the late 1600s for being out of tune, complaining that you can't make music with it.


    Seriously? :huh:

    I dont really get this, If this problem is only happening on PC, wouldnt you think that this is a PC issue and not a a Access Virus issue..?


    You have also stated that this dose not happen in Mac so It must be a PC issue....


    If this was happening on both say Mac and Pc then i would say ok there might be a problem and i would like access to address it but so far all i can see is that this is a PC problem.


    Any one think the same..?


    Hey dude, incase you have any kind of musical ear, you can clearly hear this.


    For some xxxxxxxx Access employees though this has had to be demonstrated using a Spectrum analyzer...


    edit: incase you truly cannot hear this, then you do not have that good an ear for tune. But the problem is still there... No other synths go offkey so its kind of stupid to even post stuff like that.. so plz lets stay pro and want to get pure sinwaves out of our synths..


    I just wonder where is the urge for perfection in this company..


    edit2: and most definetely the Spectrum analyzer of waves is not inaccurate - you just are not that musical to hear this. You can both hear this, and see this on a spectrum analyzer, so please stop distracting this topic incase you think it is not a problem to have an offtune synthesizer..


    Yup, it is a Virus TI connected to a PC issue. It is both in the Virus TI OS, and the software on PC running it... no doubt...

    The point is that the variation is insignificantly small - ie smaller than how close you would get a guitar or violin or flute or whatever in tune. The idea that it impedes the production of music is crazy - and yes other synths do go out of tune and I won't shoot fish in a barrel by mentioning analogues, if the battery gets low on my microKORG then the pitch will go off a little (not in absolute tuning, but you can get some funky variations going on, mostly when you set it up so the weedy little DSP starts to struggle).


    Incidentally, I have perfect pitch, I don't need to be told by you whether or not I have a musical ear.


    Stop pursuing this nonsense and enjoy your damn synth.


    I would also suggest that people place a little more faith in waves plugins than maybe they should, but what should I know... I'm only doing a PhD in it...

    I took a look at that video, too. I didn't actually see any instance of the 'problem' occuring in a practical situation - all I see is that if you hold a note then reset the ASIO driver you get some form of deviation on the spectroscope, specifically around the 'low shoulder' of the fundamental peak and a little on the 'high shoulder', too (the mean doesnt actually shift, by the way, which is why there is no audiable change in pitch).


    Without much detail on how the waves plugin works it could either be down to a disturbance in a running mean, a non integer multiple issue, or even an issue to do with what cubase actually does when you tell it to reset the audio driver (ie something within cubase disturbing the timing).
    At any rate, I'm not surprised there is a minor discontinuity when you tell it to reset the driver - in fact it's par for the course - and do you really sit there clicking it repeatedly when your working? and if you do... why?


    Just the same, if i jiggle the batteries on my microKORG it crackles, and if i move the pitch bend on my Roland D-50 it doesn't spring back to precisely 0... The fact is that none of these observations represent practical issues, either because it is not part of normal operation (like jiggling batteries or hammering a driver reset button), or that the actual deviation from expectation is so small it is insignificant (like the pitch bend wheel, and if i flick it it goes back to true zero anyway).


    Identifying the cause of this deviation may be of interest to a realtime systems analyist, but as a musician I find it very boring.

    Zitat von AtonyB

    ... if i move the pitch bend on my Roland D-50 it doesn't spring back to precisely 0...


    Maybe OT but I have the same issue with the bender of my PCR controller and it's annoying even without a perfect ear... I guess Roland type pitch benders are just mechanical crap... always wanted a Korg-type joystick instead... 'til then I'll try to give it a second bump to make it jump back to zero... :P