A bug that prevents pro music making on PC's. (on practically all TI OS)


  • Okay,


    You haven't read the thread at all since you keep asking why I am using a sine wave.


    PhD is of no worth, unless you can hear what happens - in this case.


    I'll try to reply you, but sorry after this I will not try anymore, since if you cannot hear it, there is not much to discuss about..


    I took a look at that video, too. I didn't actually see any instance of the 'problem' occuring in a practical situation - all I see is that if you hold a note then reset the ASIO driver you get some form of deviation on the spectroscope, specifically around the 'low shoulder' of the fundamental peak and a little on the 'high shoulder', too (the mean doesnt actually shift, by the way, which is why there is no audiable change in pitch).


    According to mine, and many top of the line Finnish Trance producers ears, there is audible change in pitch. I would not wish to argue this anymore...


    ..this is not a question of taste.. It simply is.



    Without much detail on how the waves plugin works it could either be down to a disturbance in a running mean, a non integer multiple issue, or even an issue to do with what cubase actually does when you tell it to reset the audio driver (ie something within cubase disturbing the timing).
    At any rate, I'm not surprised there is a minor discontinuity when you tell it to reset the driver - in fact it's par for the course - and do you really sit there clicking it repeatedly when your working? and if you do... why?


    This is only for recreational purposes


    I tick the ASIO driver dozen times, to demonstrate how people can recreate this.. 5 presses should do. And if you ask why I am pressing on the reset ASIO driver button, you really need to know, it just resets the MIXER in a similar fashion as [for example] opening a VST plug-in would.


    (this is going straight to the source of the bug, and shows a situation where Access Virus TI reacts to what is done in the sequencer - yet it seems hard for some to understand this perfectly demonstrates the problem in the current Access software)


    SO: This happens allways, in normal composing situation, no matter what patch is used.


    There are no excuses, and yes Waves is just one analyzer, but it is perfectly fitting for spotting the differences in the frequency spectrum. Which you can hear accord&correlate to the ones seen on the screen. So there is both audible proof, and also visual for those of us who cannot hear the pitch that well (which is no dissing, some people just do not have that good an ear for tune, which in no way means they would be of lesser people or lesser important...)


    edit:


    Also Waves does not show these variances, when any other VST is connected to it - so you must agree, it is the Virus TI's signal that goes off, not the Waves plug-in. Do you not?

  • Marc, any news?


    I really do not like to be a pain in the ass, but your companys help desk has really got some serious problems.


    I just received an email from one of your staff, that is still trying to convince this is phase shifting, which is not a bug.


    Could you tell these people, that incase it does not happen when the synth is connected to a MAC - and every finnish trance producer I have shown the issue have agreed it is going offtune - it must be a fault in the synthesizer.


    I just got a brand new Virus TI 2 from Thomann, because they were so sorry of your companys behaviour and all the anger that has risen over this, but it does just the same as Virus TI 1.


    I haven't received an answer from you since I showed you that resetting ASIO driver is only a normal behaviour that Cubase's mixer does, and it is shown on the video only for recreational purposes.


    I would really much like to get to make music, and put all your staffs ignorance behind me..

  • I always thought it was my fault, some kind of acoustic phenomena in my room... you shouldn't even need any analyzers, you can clearly hear that there is something going on, however even the vey basic Cubase Tuner plugin shows that it doesn't hold the frequency, sometimes A3 is locked at 440 Hz, and then again it's sliding between 435 and 444 Hz which is when you can hear that it's slowly going up and down and left and right... i can also actively trigger this behaviour too by doing the ASIO reset.


    It doesn't sound like analog emulation or phase shifting, but even if it was, why would that only happen sometimes, ie it's holding the tune fine for 10 minutes, and then all of a sudden analog emulation and/or phase shifting kicks in? Doesn't make much sense to me :huh:

  • I've used a Snow for a year now and one issue that I have had with all of the TI-OS' on Cubase 5.x (5.0->5.5, Mac) is that sometimes Cubase drops the master sync and the TI reverts to 44.1 kHz (I run 48 kHz/24 bit by default in my projects)... arps getting completely out of whack... but also tuning. I have to restart playing the song a couple of times to get it going perfectly again. Sometimes the arps have twice the speed of what the BPM should be but that happens even more rarely. Personally I have no idea why it is doing this and it has NEVER done this when I batch export with real time rendering enabled.


    I have an external DAC (over Firewire, M-Audio Audiophile Pro) that I use as the master sync which may cause the above problems... the DAC's driver has failed me more than once... in fact it is the only unstable piece of software on my Macbook OSX 10.6.x (I use the machine only for music production and nothing else is installed on it.)


    The above is a mere annoyance that I have gotten a bit accustomed to (Apple has all the crash logs of the M-Audio driver so maybe someday things will eventually get fixed on that end.)


  • I really do not like to be a pain in the ass...


    Of course not...


    Zitat


    Could you tell these people, that incase it does not happen when the synth is connected to a MAC - and every finnish trance producer I have shown the issue have agreed it is going offtune - it must be a fault in the synthesizer.


    And you did this as a double blind test and not a 'can you pretend to have good ears competition'?


    You also mention that it occurs with resetting the mixer... So let me get this straight - you reset the mixer and get a glitch... I wonder...


    Also, you say it does it with other VSTs.... you mean ones that interface with a piece of hardware via and delivers audio via a USB driver? I have loads of VSTs like that...


    So far I have heard nothing that persuades me of anything more damning than one or two samples dropped or a little variation in timing between cubase the outside world when you reset the mixer (which, incidentally i assume is supposed to flush buffers or reset starting points - the discontinuity from which is more or less guaranteed to generate artifacts in spectral analysers which in there nature operate over a series of samples to offer the kind of pitch resolution you are angling for (5Hz spectral resolution requires 8820 samples at 44.1kHz or 20ms, so you need longer than that to detect deviances of the orders suggested here, let's say at least 10,000 samples).


    However, i'm sure the waves plugin works in a slightly more complex manner meaning it retains this deviation due to dropped samples or a slip in timing between cubase and the real world due to the mixer reset for longer than you might expect...


    But, that's just a theory based on the very little evidence provided....

  • I always thought it was my fault, some kind of acoustic phenomena in my room... you shouldn't even need any analyzers, you can clearly hear that there is something going on, however even the vey basic Cubase Tuner plugin shows that it doesn't hold the frequency, sometimes A3 is locked at 440 Hz, and then again it's sliding between 435 and 444 Hz which is when you can hear that it's slowly going up and down and left and right... i can also actively trigger this behaviour too by doing the ASIO reset.


    It doesn't sound like analog emulation or phase shifting, but even if it was, why would that only happen sometimes, ie it's holding the tune fine for 10 minutes, and then all of a sudden analog emulation and/or phase shifting kicks in? Doesn't make much sense to me :huh:

    Ok, I have exactly the same problem, but on Mac. System : Mac pro, Snow leopard 10.6.3. Drifting of around 1/10th of a tone, enough to be noticeable by ear, and quite uncomfortable. BUT if I use the analog outs of the Virus ( Virus snow here), no more pitch drifting, it's super stable. I even did a fresh install of OSX, only installing logic and the virus software, same problem. Happens on Logic studio and Ableton Live, on every sound card I have ( Orpheus, internal mac sound card, Virus as sound card), and at every buffer size.
    I tried on a Macbook pro, Leopard 10.5.8 : no problem at all, pitch is stable.
    I did all these tests using the Init patch, with the balance to the left ( only OSC1 then).

  • Ok, I have exactly the same problem, but on Mac. System : Mac pro, Snow leopard 10.6.3. Drifting of around 1/10th of a tone, enough to be noticeable by ear, and quite uncomfortable. BUT if I use the analog outs of the Virus ( Virus snow here), no more pitch drifting, it's super stable. I even did a fresh install of OSX, only installing logic and the virus software, same problem. Happens on Logic studio and Ableton Live, on every sound card I have ( Orpheus, internal mac sound card, Virus as sound card), and at every buffer size.
    I tried on a Macbook pro, Leopard 10.5.8 : no problem at all, pitch is stable.
    I did all these tests using the Init patch, with the balance to the left ( only OSC1 then).


    I've also noticed some pitch anomalies with Logic 9.1 in OS X, usually the virus is one semitone off sometimes.

  • lol @ robg,



    installing an OS has nothing to do with a virus shifting.



    So thats why i always seem to have mixing problems using the TI virus! :pinch:

    http://www.myspace.com/monoproductionstm


    DAW: Cubase 5
    OS: Windows 7


    MB: Asus Rampage Extreme
    RAM: 4x 2GB DDR3 @ 1600MHz
    CPU: Intel core 2 quad @ 3.0 GHz
    GPU: ATI EAH 4890 1GB
    Sound: t.c. eletronic Konnekt 8
    Monitoring: 2x KRK rp6 g2 + 1x KRK rp10s
    DSP: UAD, t.c. eletronic Powercore 6000 including virus powercore
    USB: Virus Ti Polar
    FW: Korg m3

  • My offer to buy all of your terribly flawed Virus TI for 30 bucks each is still valid. Of course, I'm not going to pay more than that, since the bug is terrible and prevents pro music making.


    That has be the reason why so many professionals use the Virus with their Windows-based computers but they never release tracks with it on them.

  • Ive returned my ti2 back to dealer with a sync/detune problem. It will be interesting to see what they say with this in mind. Access have told me a ti2 and laptop running windows 7 is a no go, but on a mac everything is fine. We cant all have a mac and they should let people know if its not compatable, before they commit to purchase one.its disgusting!!! :cursing:


  • I never said that it did? I was pointing out the fact that I'm on the Mac platform (OS X) which is relevant to this issue.

  • Ive returned my ti2 back to dealer with a sync/detune problem. It will be interesting to see what they say with this in mind. Access have told me a ti2 and laptop running windows 7 is a no go, but on a mac everything is fine. We cant all have a mac and they should let people know if its not compatable, before they commit to purchase one.its disgusting!!! :cursing:


    Yeah,


    I received a brand new Virus TI 2 a month ago from Thomann, since they had looked at this abit more thoroughly, and had noticed that I have been right all along - and that Access has been sending them vague explanations (leading Thomann also astray).


    Now I am glad - after all this hassle atleast the reseller did the only one thing they should incase they sell something that does not provide what it is supposedly designed to do.


    Access Virus TI 2 has the same software though - so it is yet up to Access to face the flaw & fix it..

  • I always thought it was my fault, some kind of acoustic phenomena in my room... you shouldn't even need any analyzers, you can clearly hear that there is something going on, however even the vey basic Cubase Tuner plugin shows that it doesn't hold the frequency, sometimes A3 is locked at 440 Hz, and then again it's sliding between 435 and 444 Hz which is when you can hear that it's slowly going up and down and left and right... i can also actively trigger this behaviour too by doing the ASIO reset.


    It doesn't sound like analog emulation or phase shifting, but even if it was, why would that only happen sometimes, ie it's holding the tune fine for 10 minutes, and then all of a sudden analog emulation and/or phase shifting kicks in? Doesn't make much sense to me :huh:


    Yeah, thank you for confirming this.


    Hopefully Access now sees that I am really not alone with this, and other people would like to use their synths too..


    ..Doesn't make much sense to me either.

  • Lightsound,


    Does disabling and re-enabling the TI in the VST Instruments window fix the phase shifting?


    Hello, thank you for your concern. Nope - it does not do anything


    (I have tried anything, and just about all the menus inside the program, and none can be used to fix the problem - which is pitch shifting btw. not phase)