Timing or latency problems

    Hi,


    Reading this forum makes me think that timing or latency is the most typical problem people have with Virus. For me it's little suprising cause I'd suppose that hardware engine would release us from latency issues. As stated elsewhere, personally I am mostly live player and just occational DAW user, so these aren't the most crusial problems for myself. Still, when I have tried my TI2 Polar (Beta OS5) with Logic I have noticed that there's latency which is very noticeable. (And yes, I have tried those "Right audio preferences: Logic" -instructions). In fact Virus seems to be 1/32 note delayed compared to plugin synths like Arturia Spark. So for example, if I want to use those together I have to put Virus 1/32 note earlier than computer based plugins. Quite amazing, or am I really missing something relevant here? Maybe I have to mention that this is my first Virus ever, so I am a newbie with it, but quite pro with synths and computers in general... Is it new OS5 or what? Have you managed to work with TI2 without any latency in Logic or has it been like this? And I am talking about very different Virus when you play it "standalone" or in Logic. In latter case you really feel latenced or delayed response...?!

    Just to clarify amount of my latency, here's a little test:


    First, I took out all the other USB-devices to eliminate any USB problems.


    - opened Logic and made Virus TI track with bass drum sound.
    - I recorded four 1/4-beats to bar. Then I quantized and looped it.
    - Now when I put on Logic's own metronome which also plays 1/4s I can REALLY hear that Virus beat is very much delayed compared to this click.
    - Then when I add some negative delay to Virus bass drum track I can hear that I need -1/24 delay to make them sound together. ISN'T THIS QUITE A LOT??


    To compare things to another plugin, this is what I did:
    I added a track with Arturia Spark drum machine and made exactly same 1/4-bassdrum pattern
    - no hearable delay between it and Logic-click. Well, this is what was supposed to happen: both click and Spark are similar soft synth plugins.



    Any idea, what's going on? Is it new OS5 or what?

    Zitat von Marc


    i guess you're using the analog outs instead of the USB outs?
    marc


    What does this exatcly mean? I've tried to use either Virus as my Output Device in Logic > Preferences > Devices OR my Motu Soundcard. Both options work similarly: Virus is 1/24 delayed compared to Logic metronome (or any other plugin sound).


    I must confes, I don't understand what means to "use USB outs" (instead of analog outs)...? If I choose Virus as my Output Device and then Virus is USB-soundcard, isn't it correct to listen to it via its stereo outputs, right? Or is there something very basic thing missing in my setup?

    Zitat von Ecaroh

    What does this exatcly mean? I've tried to use either Virus as my Output Device in Logic > Preferences > Devices OR my Motu Soundcard. Both options work similarly: Virus is 1/24 delayed compared to Logic metronome (or any other plugin sound).


    I must confes, I don't understand what means to "use USB outs" (instead of analog outs)...? If I choose Virus as my Output Device and then Virus is USB-soundcard, isn't it correct to listen to it via its stereo outputs, right? Or is there something very basic thing missing in my setup?


    The Virus's default behavior is to use a virtual USB audio channel like a software plugin instead of sending audio over the physical analog ports on the back of the unit. If you right-click the little D for a part in the Virus's multi menu you have an option of which output jack (or pair) to use. Since USB can easily become saturated, some folks recommend using the analog outputs instead of the USB outputs (you'd need to run cables from the Virus's audio outs to inputs in your audio interface, and possibly set up input buses in your DAW to receive the audio).


    Here's what the output menu looks like in Virus Control.
    [Blockierte Grafik: http://i.imgur.com/eTlrG.png]


    All of the above said, on my system I've encountered noticeable latency (regardless of output choice) while using the Virus from Ableton Live- so bad that it's virtually unplayable for live applications. In my case it's closer to 1/16th note latency (100-125ms). I have found that clicking the Live button (slightly obscured in the lower left of my screenshot) improves the latency to the point where it's at least playable- but it's still noticeable. Thing is, on Steinberg Cubase, I don't experience any noticeable latency at all, and I've never had to use the Live button. I also own several other external synthesizers- both modern and vintage- and have never noticed latency issues with them in Ableton Live. Pretty weird.

    Zitat von Ecaroh

    What does this exatcly mean? I've tried to use either Virus as my Output Device in Logic > Preferences > Devices OR my Motu Soundcard. Both options work similarly: Virus is 1/24 delayed compared to Logic metronome (or any other plugin sound).


    I must confes, I don't understand what means to "use USB outs" (instead of analog outs)...? If I choose Virus as my Output Device and then Virus is USB-soundcard, isn't it correct to listen to it via its stereo outputs, right? Or is there something very basic thing missing in my setup?



    you have the choice in between playing the sound through virus control (the plug-in) or through the analog outs of the virus. this is independent of what's the sound card in this moment. with the analog outs you will not get an accurate timing, the notes will be early. with the usb outs (the ones which arrive in virus control) you will have not such a problem. i assume that you're talking about a playback situation here (aka you play back what you have recorded before) and i also assume that the notes are quantized.


    best, marc

    Thanks guys for clarifying some very basic things!


    I am a newbie here, but I think I am a quite fast learner.


    Now, about audio outs:


    As UltimateOutsider supposed, I was using USB1 L+R setup. And this gave me both (a) latency feeling (when you press a key you hear it delayed) and also (b) very much delayed playback compared to Logic's click. As said earlier, in this (b) case my test pattern 4x1/4 bass drum was quantized. Now I understand little bit better what's happening: Virus is routed via USB to whatever soundcard I am using.


    But then I tested the other option. I changed my bass drum to Virus' analog outs OUT1 L+R. What happens? This gets rid of latency (a); playing feels very immediate. This is good improvement. But strangely, latency (b), playback against Logic click, is very very delayed. If we speak about milliseconds, when I give Virus -90.0 ms correction then we are close to Logic's click.


    Conclusion: this playback latency (b) seems to be very much same, no matter if you use analog or USB-outs setup.


    ?(

    Zitat von Ecaroh

    Conclusion: this playback latency (b) seems to be very much same, no matter if you use analog or USB-outs setup.


    ?(


    This has been my experience, as well. Changing the outputs didn't improve or worsen the situation. But results will vary depending on your setup.


    The only thing that worked for me was enabling Live mode in the plugin. But I haven't tested whether that affected recorded timing; just live playback. I pretty much stick to Cubase since it's been problem-free there.

    flabberbob:


    I am not sure if I understand what you mean...? My quantized test track (playing simple 1/4s) plays well and in sync to Logic-click, if I playback it with any other software plugin.


    Also, if I play same track with Virus "normal way" (without TI-plugin, sending MIDI-data via USB to Virus) everything plays well. So somehow in my setup TI (OS5?) gives me 80ms latency. Also, TI have crashed Logic pro 9 many times.

    Zitat von Ecaroh

    As UltimateOutsider supposed, I was using USB1 L+R setup. And this gave me both (a) latency feeling (when you press a key you hear it delayed) and also (b) very much delayed playback compared to Logic's click. As said earlier, in this (b) case my test pattern 4x1/4 bass drum was quantized. Now I understand little bit better what's happening: Virus is routed via USB to whatever soundcard I am using.


    But then I tested the other option. I changed my bass drum to Virus' analog outs OUT1 L+R. What happens? This gets rid of latency (a); playing feels very immediate. This is good improvement. But strangely, latency (b), playback against Logic click, is very very delayed. If we speak about milliseconds, when I give Virus -90.0 ms correction then we are close to Logic's click.


    Conclusion: this playback latency (b) seems to be very much same, no matter if you use analog or USB-outs setup.


    using logic pro and a 128 buffer i don't have a significant latency on the USB outs at all. if yours shows something in the range of 90ms, something is very wrong setup. as for your conclusion, this is where the "D" button comes in and also my advise to you to read the Setup Guide and other relevant documents such as the Virus Control guide and the Startup Guide. also email support is your friend.


    best, marc

    Zitat von Marc

    using logic pro and a 128 buffer i don't have a significant latency on the USB outs at all. if yours shows something in the range of 90ms, something is very wrong setup. as for your conclusion, this is where the "D" button comes in and also my advise to you to read the Setup Guide and other relevant documents such as the Virus Control guide and the Startup Guide. also email support is your friend.


    best, marc



    That never worked for me. Either it was laggy (200ms and more =unplayable), or the arp was "swimming" (in and out of time), or both, in any of the possibilities (with, without proposed Belkin USB hub, other cables, no HD on same port, low or high latency compensation, etc) you or access support told me with any of the software revisions that came and went the last 12 months.
    I resorted to DIN-Midi-only connection (no USB) and analog audio only to the DAW, and sometimes audio-quantizing the arps in Logic.
    Sorry Marc, I love the TI2 and love the sound, absolutely top-notch, and would never sell it, but the whole total integration needs a serious makeover, or at least a "light" version that skips all the audio over USB thing and resorts to remote controlling the synth parameters. Then we'll be all happy and wearing access t-shirts :D
    ah, one more thing:
    If I connect the TI2, Logic says "do you want to use ti as soundcard?". I mostly click "no", because I already have a Focusrite Saffire connected. This is the right thing to do, right? Logic is a little confusing when it comes to using 2 audio devices...