My Ableton Live Setup...and the TI Generally

  • I got a request from thetechnobear in another thread to go into some detail about how I set up Live with my TI with the VC plugin, and working with the TI generally. I don't expect this will solve some of the more serious issues people have with getting VC to play nice, but hopefully it'll help someone. There may be some better ways to achieve what I'm doing as I'm no Live expert, I only switched to it a year ago. So if you have a better workflow I'd love to hear about it. I've been using the TI since 2008 though,,,,and I'm still not done learning everything the engine has to offer. DEEP!


    If you want to ask questions about my setup with regards to getting VC to work, I already posted up everything I could think of over at this thread. Feel free to ask questions there.


    http://www.virus.info/forum/in…ad&threadID=5072&pageNo=2



    I'll get on answering thetechnobear's questions...


    "- your workflow, whats your template look like, do you record midi, then bounce etc."


    My template that I fire up every new project looks like this. Pretty simple. I have the TI plugin instance at the top turned off. Three audio tracks monitoring in.


    1/ From > Virus TI > Post FX
    2/ From > Virus TI > 2-Virus Ti
    3/ From > Virus TI > 3-Virus TI


    I sacrifice the input as I don't use the Virus Vocoder (I use Razor...really clear vocoder) nor do I use it for FX.


    I use each track for logical groupings of sounds. Bass in one, leads in another, pads...whatever the tune requires. I then create MIDI tracks for each sounds routed to the relevant channel on the TI. The sound on the TI is then routed to USB 1,2 or 3 depending on it's grouping. I avoid bouncing for as long as possible and I tend to effect groups as a gorup (except detail work....eq etc.). When I do need to bounce something, usually because the Virus has run out of DSP I just solo whichever sound I don't need to tweak and record it into the track. Copy that into a new track and mute its MIDI channel. The patch and routing are all still there to be un-muted and recorded if you need to tweak. I mix the levels of these sounds in the VC plugin until I'm ready to bounce all of them. Then everything gets its own track and I can do eq detail etc.


    "- more on how you 'group sounds'"


    Half explained above. Back when I was using Renoise I got used to how it separated instruments from tracks. Any instrument could play in any track as each note event has to designate which instrument it's using. This was useful for using lots of sounds like one instrument. If I had a bass sequence that used a bunch of different patches (wubs or reese etc.) it could all just live in one sequence in one track. I'd route the relevant USB out for that group to that track and treat multiple patches as a single patch effectively. I could do lazy things like rack up subtle variants of the same wub patch as separate patches and vary the LFO rate and unison pan etc. per patch, but use them like one instrument.



    I lost a lot of that functionality moving over to Live...it's way easier to just automate those parameters in this environment than manage 3-4 midi tracks of virtually identical patches. However grouping sounds and just using multiple synth instances stuck. If I want to do a heavily modulated bass I just mix up my TI bass group with things like Massive or Razor in an Ableton track group and treat them like 1 patch....lots of eq and filter sculpting...which the new TI filter banks are great for.


    Everything else is explained above really. If anyone knows if I can route notes on a single midi track to different/multiple midi channels it would help me out a lot. Almost like having Renoise back...almost.


    Most of the other questions have been answered in that little essay...so I'll skip a few.


    "- do you use clocked aspects e.g. clocked LFOs, delays
    - do you bother with virus on-board effects (I'm pushing them to ableton/vsts)"


    Yes and yes. One of the reasons I don;t like to bounce or work with samples is my love for using modulation to change the texture of a sound. LFOs that sync to funny measures or freewheel. I tend to get the modulation options on any synth to do half of the work before I approach manual automation. I use the onboard effects a lot. Analogue boost and the speaker cab get a lot of punishment. Great distortion models. Great as filter saturation....rate and follow is really useful. They are all really good effects and they are RIGHT THERE. I rarely need to use VSTs or Live native effects on virus patches as, since the addition of the additional filter banks, pretty much everything I need available on the TI. I really can't say the same for any other synth I use (currently mostly Massive, Reaktor, Razor). The exception being some EQ and compression.


    Finally on working within the TI limitations....well there's how I approach patch grouping and bouncing. Not an incredible innovation, but saves me time. Also as I said in the other thread, yes the Virus is famous for its history as an analogue (though admittedly I was a Novation Nova guy back then) that's a very crowded space. The wavetables are great. PWM wavetables are a downright TRIUMPH. The formant oscs open up a whole range of textures that really compete with a lot of the modern digital VSTs. Whenever I go hunting for patch advice I see a lot of posts saying the same thing...


    'The Virus can't do those kind of sounds...'


    I think. Are we talking about the same Virus? The TI? Do you even own a TI? Have you ever upgraded the OS?!? It's a beast! where else can I casually rack up 9 sawtooth waves on one knob and sync that to another complex wave like the wavetable or formants...or frequency modulation between two different flavours of complex wave? Hell even if you are some kind of weird epic trance monk who has taken a vow to only ever use sawtooths...9 on 1...9 on 2...plus slave...plus sub...oh an 8 voice unison. THAT'S TOO MANY SAWS!


    So yeah. Those patches tend to eat up the processor, but it really grabs the uniqueness of the virus. You don't get many sounds anyway on a TI1 before it runs out of puff, so might as well use the stuff that any old analogue modelercan't do. I usually get 3-4 sounds with my programming habits, which fits in just fine with the way I route and use sounds mentioned above. Plus, like I said, it encourages me to write specific little stabs, wubs etc. that everything keeps out of the way for. No more than 3-4 complex sounds at once and you can get away with having loads of different patches, or subtle variants like I mentioned earlier, darting in and out without any dropouts. I also got out the habit of using too much unison. I found that on most of my patches you stop hearing any difference over 5. 8 voice unison patches with lots of detune etc. tend to want to dominate a mix anyway.



    Of course, as I mentioned on the other thread, you can max out a TI1 with just 1 patch if you use 2 formant complex oscs and unison. To be fair though if you do that and the patch doesn't sound like arse it's a bloody achievement! Be proud!


    Phew. Long post. I hope that answers your questions. I also hope people find it useful or at least interesting. Here's hoping it sparks some woefully absent positive debate about the TI.

  • great post! - lots to digest... will re-read tomorrow when Im a bit fresher :o)


    so your using VC & USB entirely - cool.
    Midi track per instrument, routed to a track with VC, then VC outputs routed to 3 audio tracks (usb 1,2,3) ... midi and audio tracks grouped bass/lead/pads (etc)


    Interesting you uses clocked lfos and effects .. so because your using VC, this means that the TI acts as a slave to Ableton... do you ever notice the BPM led not flashing in time/sync with the beat... do you notice the clocked lfo/delays not being synced.


    Ive been just using midi (not VC) , and using external instruments in able to, so I can freeze tracks, because otherwise if I have multiple parts playing I see the bpm led getting out of sync (I also use ableton as the clock master)


    I think tomorrow I will have another go with VC, and see if it the same (which when I previously tested, it seemed to be)


    I also like your approach of using others synths for the 'bread and butter' and letting the Virus do what it does best.


    BTW, I don't think you can reroute one midi track to multiple midi tracks... even with Max 4 Live, your are restricted to only send out on one midi channel :o(


    as I say lots to digest, will start tomorrow morning with a fresh cup of coffee... will report back :o)


    thanks again for going to the trouble of writing up how your working.

  • No worries...I could talk about this stuff all day.


    Yeah I read somewhere that Abe doesn't do channel per note event. I hoped otherwise. I miss tracking really, it's a such a quick way to lay down sequence and gives you lots of control, though it's not for everyone and the barrier to entry is quite high.


    The only issues I get with the TI when running VC are clock sync and note timing. The note timing is most often on starting playback, usually only from the beginning of a track. Putting an early trigger at the start usually fixes this...gets it out of the TIs system before it can do any damage. Really though I let it slide while I'm working...only spoils the occasional bounce and I can do those again when it *needs* to be right.


    As for the clock; I can observe the LED looking a bit lazy or fast sometimes, butt accounting for latency, buffers etc. it's slight enough to not be sure. Rarely manifests itself in playback. the most likely clock issues I encounter are when it just goes nuts and loses the plot entirely. These are occasional, and a stop and restart of the sequence usually rights it first time. Either that or I let it run a bit and it finds its feet again. It's usually still synced to a degree in that it goes double or half time. I use LFOs as envelopes or for filter mod quite a bit for gap filling wub one offs so it would be really noticeable if it were a persistent problem. Delays are the same. I used to also get pitching artefacts in the delay when the clock drifted, but I've not seen those in a while. Though I've not been using delay a lot recently.

  • Wow ... some great news!
    Given you were not getting too many issues with your midi timing (compared to me) i decided to check with VC.
    I had a piece that has 4 midi tracks to the Virus, which was getting the clock to go astray within seconds of it starting, so decided to use this.... (note: I was using physical midi ports, as Ive had USB issues in the past)


    so plugged in USB, changed the tracks to point to a VC instance, and indeed timing was absolutely spot on! - :thumbup:
    Then on a 'hunch', I removed the VC track, and pointed the midi tracks to Virus Synth (i.e. USB midi), again spot on...


    the same tracks that would throw out the physical midi sync at 120 bpm, now could be cranked up to 250+ with the sync still in tack.


    Ive also done my 'arp' test, shows that the TI clock is within acceptable limits.


    So it appears the physical midi ports are not working well :thumbdown: - so I'm now switching back to USB, which does appear to with the latest drivers improved for me.


    Next, I noticed since I use the analogue outputs (i like their sound, and also to keep usb bandwidth down), of course had the VC playing early... well known issue with plugin delay compensation.
    Easy to fix , just dialled in -10ms track delay, bang, all nicely lined up ( Ive 10ms audio compensation, not sure id this is coincidence or not, could be)


    Now, looking all very good... now have to decide if I go back to using VC or stick with USB Midi... I think I might try VC for the moment, as it seemed to behave!



    yeah, I re-read your post regarding trackers... ok, Im not 100% sure what you are trying to do (as I've not used a tracker)... but i wonder...
    If you had 1 midi track which contained the main track... this could then feed into multiple midi tracks, which can even filter events e.g use Pitch, or chains, or M4L
    e.g.
    1 - Midi, output= no output
    2 - Midi, input = 1 midi , output TI channel 1, Pitch lowest A0, range +23, Velocity lowest 64, range 127
    3 - Midi, input = 1 midi , output TI channel 2, Pitch lowest A2, range +127 Velocity lowest 64, range 127
    4 - Midi, input = 1 midi , output Massive channel 1, Velocity lowest, 0, range 63
    (this example would route all low velocity notes to massive, and higher to TI... low notes to TI ch 1, high to TI ch 2)
    This would mean you'd put all your notes for all instruments in 1- Midi clips, and just use 2,3,4 to forward to relevant instrument.... you'd just have to decide which parameters to use as a filter....
    but the options are endless, of course you loose some range (either note, or velocity), but this may not matter

  • That is indeed great news. Working with the VC is so much clearer than programming on the hardware, Instant access to all parameters with no menu diving speeds things up a lot, and encourages you to use the features that are a bit buried way more.


    The arp is something I didn't comment on. I tend to sequence all my arpeggios anyway, though I do use arp to matrix a lot for stuff like WTindex or formant spread. I use the comb filter trick that Ben Crosland went over in the tutorial video when it was introduced. I'd love for the comb filter to accept note data really. There have been loads of times when I've just wanted it to play a little pitched comb filter sequence over a patch. There aren't any comb filters out there that allow you to do this as far as I know. I should really try working out how to keytrack it and maybe use the virus effects AS EFFECTS for the first time. Still I should probably stop being lazy and just knock something up in Reaktor.


    Anyway the arp is subject to the same issues as all my other clocked elements. Occasionally lazy, sometimes goes nuts. Not enough to cost me time given how much time using VC saves programming, tweaking and sculpting.


    USB bandwidth has never been an issue for me. I do keep one USB controller free just for the Virus though, and I don't run a lot of USB devices anyway. USB support has constantly puzzled me with the Virus.


    User: Why is it USB 1??!? That's nuts!
    Access: To ensure compatibility
    User: USB is backwards compatible, surely it could just use the available bandwidth on USB 1 and 2
    Access: Shhhh
    User: It's not working great either
    Access: Buy a dedicated USB card...everyone should really
    User: FFFXGKKGKTTT!!! So you make it USB 1 for 'compatability'....then tell everyone to buy a dedicated card anyway?
    Access: Correct...if you don't like it, go and buy your boutique digital synths from...oh...oh..are we the only show in town? Deary me!


    ...so yeah. That never made any sense. Anyway it sounds like you have the makings of a nice and flexible VC setup. I occasionally find myself wishing I had more outs, and with both USB and hardware you do. Use your USB for the sounds that suit that best and hardware for the same. It's making me consider that I should hook up my audio outs for pads or sounds with verb or delay. More outs is more outs...and all better USB support would give me is more outs.


    I think you've solved my multiple midi track issue there. I don't use velocity for modulation ever really, and the range trick picks up any 'spares'. My main issue in working the way I do is keeping track of the various sequences and being able to quickly edit which patch is supposed to be darting in for incidental sounds etc. This way I can contain it all in one midi track and just collapse the tracks used for routing and ignore them. I really think you've cracked it there. THANKS!

  • Oh i think USB bandwidth is not really an issues, (usb1 can cope), and if there is a TI3 it will be usb2+ ... but you could not retro fit it. the real issue for Access has been the hubs which they have no control over, also they don't write the usb software. again, I'm sure if they were doing it now, it would be done differently, but back in 2007 (?) it was a new concept (synth/daw integration)... and really I don't think they knew much about the issues it would bring.
    oh well, we are where we are :)


    arps - yeah i don't use them either, but they are an easy way to test if the TIs clock is really in sync.
    multiple midi tracks - cool, let me know how it goes.


    i spoke a bit soon about my setup being perfect :)
    i started playing drums using my midi controller against a drum track, and found all midi notes were being recorded too later (by 1/32), so when the loop played it was completely out of sync.
    puzzled me for a long time... as if I have the TI notes 'on time' it was perfect, and also recording an audio track, showed it was fine too.... just the midi recording.
    I played with all the delay compensation times, nothing worked... :(


    Then I put VC into Live mode, everything started playing correctly, when I have the delay comp on virus TI track set to -10.
    (this -10 is required, because ableton only compensates for audio interface IF you are using an audio track set to OFF, it then realises you are monitoring the output directly... so you need to do it manually if your are using the analog outs on the TI)


    In fairness I think this is Abletons issue, as Ive seen many complaints about its PDC (plugin delay compensation) ... it pretty much looks like the TI plugin reports around 60ms (in non-live mode) and I think this delays the other tracks (non TI),
    which means my reference drum track I hear 60ms too late, so I'm drumming 60ms too late (1/32) ... or something like that.


    morale of story, use Live mode, and put the VC track delay at the same as your audio interface. (e.g. if is 10 use -10)


    Soit appears you can then still have delay compensation enabled in Ableton Live... which probably is useful for other plugins - I think :o)


    phew... I hope i can finally, just get on and make some music!

  • I've encountered similar things. A project I was recently working on held notes for no reason. I've not managed to fix it, and it's not in the sequence. Again though it's rare enough that using VC still saves me time. As for timing...I'm not much of a keyboardist so I don't really record live played input. I just sequence. I think that's the intended use of live mode. I had a play with my TI keyboard and using it for input it was OK triggerig the TI and other synths. To be honest my other input devices are much worse. My PadKontrol is terrible, which for drum input, is pretty bad. The only cure for this I've found is tightening the buffer size.

  • Hi, i am working with the TI in Pro Tools10HD, tried both usb and line outs. Been struggling with midi delay,had the idea now, that i should try Vienna ensemble Pro5, to take some softsynts out of the pro tools system. I was then using Virus TI, VC in pro tools, but all soft synths throug vienna. still a lot of latency..vienna couldnt figure it out, as there should be no delay, all should be compesated for. As soon as i took the instrument track with the VC away, then everything was in sync. So as soon as i add the TI plugin (VC) on a instrument track, it creates delay from all other midi tracks..anyone having this problem??


    br joakim

  • sorry dont know about pro tools...
    but bare in mind delay compensation (aka plugin delay compensation, pdc) has to affect all tracks, thats how it works. basically the daw looks at the compensation required by all tracks, and then calculates when to send notes.
    e.g if you have a vc track, that requires 10ms dc, then it will send notes to it 10ms before all others tracks... you can either view this as 10ms early to vc OR delays all other tracks by 10ms...
    (view is semantic, except in live recording, where of course you can only delay)


    of course things get more interesting when you have others tracks all with delay compensation.
    e.g A 10ms, B 3ms, C 7ms.
    then a daw would send at A at T-7 C at T-4 B at T....
    or as above really this is A at T, C at T+3 B at T+7


    sorry if you know all this, but if not hope it helps
    I found delay compensation odd initially especially in ableton
    its a topic worth reading up about, as everything has delay (even software) , and so its a fact of llife in DAWs,
    even if they sometimes cleverly hide it :)

  • I know about delay compensation, or i just always had AUTOMATIC delay compensation, so never care to much about it. But i guess automatic delay compensation in PT only goes for audio? even though i have adc set to maximum, which is 16000 samples its unable to correct the midi tracks. So i guess the midi tracks can only be fixed by global midi offset type? is it like this in other softwares to? i own licenses for both cubase and logic pro also..but would really like to have it working in pro tools since thats my "main" program, or by using vienna ensemble pro5. But it adds a big delay when i insert it there also, were talking like 5000 samples or something..

  • no problem... sorry can't help you on PT specifics...
    are you sure its 16000 samples... thats massive, thats like 363ms, or a 1/3 of a second, you couldn't use that in any live situation, only for bouncing,
    perhaps this is just a 'max' that PT would use if necessary, but in practice would only use what is required.


    Ableton allows you to set a manual delay compensation for every track.


    Ive just checked in Max/Msp. Virus Control reports initially 3072 samples, with LIVE mode disabled.... which is about 70ms (@44.1), which is pretty high (I think) but workable.
    when you enable LIVE mode, it goes down to 256 samples!!! ... 5.8ms, much more useful! ... and the mode I always use.
    (oddly, a bug? if you disable live mode it goes up to 3584 samples... )
    note: if you use analogue outputs on the TI you will have to adjust this delay compensation, as the delay is then dependent on your audio interface


    are you using LIVE mode on virus control?

  • Hi again, no i had not tried live mode before today, cause i read somewhere it was unstable on the sync in live mode. but it is correct like you say. I have a 48khz project, 256 buffer. i think it read something like 4800 samples delay on the meter underneath the pro tools mixer, when i enabled live mode it went down to 256 samples. And as you said, thats workable, but i still had to use a midi offset of 1100 samples or something to get it to sync with my audio tracks. what about the 2output, 3 output modes do they have anything to say? Pro tools HD should take care of the delay on the analog delay, is it a better option? since the usb bus then can concentrate on keeping in touch with the virus? are there any other midi/sync settings inside the virus?


    Fingers crossed i will find an easy way to set up the delays and evrything..i loooooooove the virus!!:-)

  • if your using OSX 10.9 and Virus OS 5.0.7, don't use 48khz... it doesn't work, use 44khz, in fact I would say test it with 44khz anyway (I've had lots of issues getting 48khz to work)


    Ive really no idea why you would need a midi offset too - and where 1100 would come from.


    Yes, I tend to feed the output of my virus into an audio interface, rather than using USB .. partly as I like the sound of the analogue outs (and I use spdif if I want the digital input) and as you say to free up the usb a bit.... though the USB audio does work ok for me too.


    if you move to using the analogue outs you will have to manually alter the delay (as the pdc assumes it sending the output back via usb, and also its no idea how fast your audio interface is)


    In practice with live mode enabled, you should be looking at around 10ms delay (so ~512 samples), this should close to your audio cards delay, plus the 256 samples of the virus in live mode.


    i fine tuned this by getting Live to send a note per on first bear of bar to the virus, which had a patch which was pulse (fast attack/release)... then recorded the resulting audio, and messed about with the delay compensation until the pulse recorded fell exactly on the beat... wasn't hard as you can see how far it is ahead/behind, so only need to do a few times.


    also, as the Virus is reporting 256 samples, the rest is really how PT handles delay compensation with external synths... perhaps a pro tools forum might have some answer/suggestions?

  • When I try and set mine up in Live I don't get this:
    1/ From > Virus TI > Post FX
    2/ From > Virus TI > 2-Virus Ti
    3/ From > Virus TI > 3-Virus TI


    I get
    Pre FX
    Post FX
    Post Mixer
    3/4 Virus
    5/6 virus


    can't seem to change... at least I don't know how 8|

  • Hi Stevenclements
    the reason you get what you get is you are using the Apple AU plugin. the Post Fx, 2- Virus..... options appear if you use the VST!!! I asked Access why the difference - they said they were the same and i must be using the TI plugin and not the Snow plugin!

  • Hi guys i have followed a online video to set up the virus in Ableton. Im using live 10.1 on mac os 10.13.3.... everything goes fine until i set up the audio channels when i select virus on the audio from, it will let me select the virus (main/plug in channel) but then it doesn't give me the option to select virus 2 or virus 3 underneath it. instead it says virus 3/4 and virus 5/6 so i have tried these but they dont work any help would be great!!!
    cheers