Multiple Instances of Virus

    This is probably a noob question. The Polar I just got is my first hardware synth. I use Ableton and I'm used to dragging out multiple instances of the same VSTs for each clip that I need it for. Am I to assume that I can't do that with my Virus since all the sounds reside in the hardware?

    Hello,
    That is correct. The Virus Ti Control PlugIn only can be opened once, since it shows all the Virus TI can do, so it gives you up to 16 different sounds on different Midi channels and you can have a maximum of 3 USB stereo streams into Ableton Live.You might want to take a look at the TI & Ableton Live tutorial which got installed on your hard drive with the TI software. The tutorial song will show you exactly how the TI needs to be set up to be able to use it on different Midi channels, so to be able to play several sounds at once.


    Best wishes,
    Jörg Hüttner

    "not possible since all sounds reside in the hardware"


    Well, that can't be the reason why it shouldn't work. Lots of hardware stream 16 or more separate audio channels over usb. I think the reason why they implemented this way is the vst plugin architecture which - i think - does not support to have any communication between several plugin instances. Such communication must be implemented in the virus driver or any shared process which acts as a mediator between several plugin instances. It is more complex to implement but i don't believe it is not possible to allow multiple instances. And the way it is - for my opinion - is not acceptable. I mean look at this weird construction with several tracks... This is totally sick! (And i really don't say this because i don't understand it)


    Aside of that the virus has a great synthesis model and a very very nice sound :)

    Dear Charly,
    Don't get me wrong: this is the way the Total Integration works since day 1 and no, it is not possible to have separate instances. We are talking about the integration of a hardware synthesizer in a software environment and not plugins that are entirely rendered on an internal CPU. The entire TI sound is rendered in the TI unit and not on the CPU.
    And yes, there are also restrictions for plugin standards as well, which cannot be overcome by a different driver. This could only be changed if an actual plugin standard changes and these plugin standards are not developed by us. We just code plugins exactly to these standards.
    The restrictions of audio channels transmitted by the TI comes simply from the USB speed the TI operates at. This is nothing that can be expanded by software. This is a hardware restriction.


    Best wishes,
    Jörg Hüttner

    Dear Jörg,


    i see, anyway when you look on other DSP based systems you will see that they actually have multiclient drivers and can use a dsp hardware resource from different plugin instances Other usb based hardware uses 16 or more simultaneous channels. I do not request to extend the usb bandwitdth i request to think about a dynamic assignment of audio channels to different plugin instances.


    I respect all your efforts as developers to build a revolutionary system but i simply argue from the user point of view and hope that at least with upcoming products there will be better solutions. looking at existing systems this tells me that also the virus concept can be improved. If it doesn't work it's caused by your internal virus architecture and for good luck you can change this.


    Greetz,
    Charly

    doesn't sound like you guys have properly got the hang of working with your virus yet! The virus isn't a softsynth. It's a Virus.
    It's good the way it is. You can have 16 parts all lined up in one instance so you have access to everything in one place as opposed to any vst where it would take you 16 channels. You can then setup separate audio channels to receive the 3 individual audio out streams. You've got your whole browser there so you can easily swap patches back and forth into the 16 slots or make an empty bank to use for the track you're working on if you feel like it. The only way the current system would realistically hold you back is if you need more than 3 separate streams going at once and can't have any of them doubling up on your 3 available output streams. It's not something I've ever run into in the 2 years I've had mine. If you're going to really go to town on the virus like it's the only instrument in your studio then you'll have to use the 3 streams as groups.. like Bass, Synths, FX or something. That or just track the damn thing to audio as that's a normal part of producing a song anyways.

    Jörg: I probably understand his way of thinking - when I started working with virus plugin I was also a little bit confused. still, single instance of a multi timbral plugin it's just the concept you chose when designing the ti architecture, and if virus used a faster interface (=faster usb or firewire) it would probably be possible to have multiple, but non-multitimbral instances all referring to the same instrument. with separate audio stream for each.


    however, next week I am getting another "physical instance" of the TI and I wonder if I'll be able to hook up two viruses to one computer. in that case I should be able to have two instances of virus plugin, right?..

    One of the disadvantages is that controller automation and notes are totally separated. This makes it very hard to arrange a song because clips can no more be moved to another song position without intensive clicking and copying in the "global automation track" of the virus.


    Just one.

    PowerCore managed to work with several instances, but i suppose they were more independant and it never worked that great anyway. Either way I think its better to have it all in one place, why is this a problem to some people?

    Zitat von AtonyB

    PowerCore managed to work with several instances, but i suppose they were more independant and it never worked that great anyway.


    LOL! Yeah, my two Powercore cards (with Virus unlimited) have been sitting in a box gathering dust for years now. I just realised that I was spending all my time hunting drop-outs, missing channels, clicks and pops and none of it making music.


    Am I a glutton for punishment? ;^)

    Zitat von AtonyB

    Either way I think its better to have it all in one place, why is this a problem to some people?

    From a few threads I've looked over on this topic, it seems that the main issues are:


    1: Cosmetic/workflow - having an extra channel in the sequencer adds clutter and the whole thing behaves differently to VST instruments. Specifically:


    2: Workflow/usability - automation all happens within one track so there is a separation of MIDI and automation data. Also, the fact that all automation data is on one track is confusing, fiddly, time consuming and difficult to work with.


    Also:


    3: All the audio is lumped together into one channel (or two or three), so different parts can't be processed individually.


    I've mainly been learning how to use the hardware interface since I got the Virus, so I haven't tried sequencer automation yet. I will be interested to see how the different instances are handled in Ableton.


    Point 3 is, sadly, a hardware limitation. Point 1 is necessary due to the hardware limitation.


    The only way out I can see for point 2 is a 'virtual part' VST plugin, which sends and receives automation and MIDI note data for a single Virus part... But not audio. I have no idea what nightmare code would be needed to make that happen while maintaining a smooth USB connection throughout and honouring the VST protocol.

    Zitat von dark_fader

    1: Cosmetic/workflow - having an extra channel in the sequencer adds clutter and the whole thing behaves differently to VST instruments. Specifically:


    2: Workflow/usability - automation all happens within one track so there is a separation of MIDI and automation data. Also, the fact that all automation data is on one track is confusing, fiddly, time consuming and difficult to work with.

    This isn't correct, there's no difference in the amount of tracks in your arrange window if you have 5 software instruments or 1 multi timbral instrument using 5 channels. Your mixer window will look different as there will only be 1 channel strip (or up to 3 if you are using the multi out) instead of 5 separate ones - ie. less clutter.


    Each lane can have it's own automation on it so that is no harder to keep track of than working with separate instruments.


    I don't know how Abelton works, so the above might not apply but workflow is not a problem when using the TI within Logic.

    I find it very funny, since people who are used to recording and mixing in analog studios find it very natural, since you have only one (OK maybe 2) of each piece of gear, each time you need an effect or to record a channel you create a new route (effect send or whatever) and commit to tape... Everything is solved by routing as opposed to doing it in the box where you can create as many instances as you like of pure S/W objects. Well, this is what happens when the two worlds collide...

    Zitat von Ruari

    This isn't correct, there's no difference in the amount of tracks in your arrange window if you have 5 software instruments or 1 multi timbral instrument using 5 channels. Your mixer window will look different as there will only be 1 channel strip (or up to 3 if you are using the multi out) instead of 5 separate ones - ie. less clutter.


    Each lane can have it's own automation on it so that is no harder to keep track of than working with separate instruments.


    I don't know how Abelton works, so the above might not apply but workflow is not a problem when using the TI within Logic.

    OK, firstly the Ableton tutorial song shows an extra track used just for audio and the VST, so 9 MIDI tracks + 1 audio/VST track. (And another audio track for outs 3/4). For all its lovliness, Ableton does tent to clutter.



    Secondly, even in the tutorial project, recording a knob turn on the Virus creates automation data in the lane for the VST plug-in. So yeah, all automation arrives in the same lane, which I can see getting very irritating.


    Is there a way to get Ableton to divert automation data (different from MIDI data) to a different MIDI channel strip? It kinda sounds like Logic has support for multi-timbral VSTs while Ableton doesn't. (This could well be the case - you don't get many multi-timbral VSTs.)

    That's fair enough, if that's how Ableton handles things then I can see where you're coming from. Is it not possible to write any automation data in the other MIDI lanes at all? Automation is just MIDI data like your MIDI notes are, if you were able to go to say MIDI lane 2 then write automation data for Virus Part 2 in that lane then that would help you keep track of things a little easier. Just a thought…


    Logic is pretty good when it comes to MIDI, it even ships with a few multi timbral/multi out instruments of it's own. I'd be a bit disappointed if the Ableton developers decided not to implement proper multi timbral instrument support because they decided that there weren't enough instruments out there that would use it. What happens when someone wants to create or use a Kontakt multi? Surely that has to be one of the most widely used multi timbralled plug-ins there is.

    Automation data seems to be different from MIDI. For example, the sequencer knows the name of the parameter and the type of control (which it wouldn't with MIDI) and VSTs allow a finer degree of control than the 128 steps MIDI allows.


    I can set up MIDI tracks to send to a specific MIDI channel and record MIDI data I create, but when I grab a knob on the Virus, the VST track just grabs the named automation data. I could set it up to use MIDI in from the Virus maybe...


    There's a few long, involved discussions about multi-timbral instruments on Ableton forums and the external instrument plug-in, which seems to have been created after the Ableton tutorial project was made. I'll experiment.

    Zitat von dark_fader

    Automation data seems to be different from MIDI. For example, the sequencer knows the name of the parameter and the type of control (which it wouldn't with MIDI) and VSTs allow a finer degree of control than the 128 steps MIDI allows.

    Yes, software can display the name of the automation parameter to the host. To get a finer degree of control then instead of the basic standard MIDI CC data the synth manufacturer can resort to what is called NRPN (Non Registered Parameter Number) where there is more than one piece of controller data sent for every bit of knob movement, but it is still just MIDI data being sent.

    Zitat

    I can set up MIDI tracks to send to a specific MIDI channel and record
    MIDI data I create, but when I grab a knob on the Virus, the VST track
    just grabs the named automation data. I could set it up to use MIDI in
    from the Virus maybe...

    After you have recorded your knob movements, can you copy that automation data to a different lane?


    Zitat

    There's a few long, involved discussions about multi-timbral instruments
    on Ableton forums and the external instrument plug-in, which seems to
    have been created after the Ableton tutorial project was made. I'll
    experiment.

    Ah right, now this might be a case of different things in different DAWs having the same name but the external instrument plug-in in Logic is for connecting up external hardware - like a Jupiter etc - & treating it as a software instrument. The only good thing about using the external instrument plug-in in Logic is that you don't need a separate audio track to be able to hear the instrument, if you wanted to use any automation on that instrument then you are far better off having a dedicated MIDI instrument lane (the automation shows up as CC# though) if you don't happen to have an external mixer then you will have to create an audio track with it's input set to wherever the synth is coming into your audio interface. You wouldn't use that if you were using the VC plug-in though.

    Actually, if it is such a big problem for you, you can use every track in Ableton from the Virus TI with its own lane if you run it via MIDI without VC. The issue is simple how Ableton handles plugins. I have found that the easiest way to run my Virus TI with Ableton is to have a starting template with no configured controllers from the Virus TI. I just add them as I go to keep it clean.