Unison strumming why??? Help please!!! (edit: previously thought to be Hypersaw)

    Anyone else noticed this? When midi is triggering the sound, a chord, even though the notes are at the exact same time, it's as though the notes have a rapid strum, each note triggered a few MS apart. The timing is extremely tight but not exact. It's intermittent and quite random to when it will happen.


    I only noticed it today when i added a strong filter envelope to a typical huge TI dual Hypersaw. There was a strange effect ruining the sound every so many notes. At first I was very confused to what it could be, one of those WTF! WHY! moments!!!


    Please guys help, try it out for yourself...


    If you tighten up the filter envelop, much tighter than the pluck effect, it's clear as day. I even ran Ozone Spectrogram and could see the peaks in time and occasionally ever so slightly out.


    I need a work around... Can any one help???

    How tight is "extremely tight" timing? How many milliseconds are the notes apart?


    MIDI events are always transmitted in sequence, thus any two MIDI events will never happen at the same time.

    Bass Player and Synthesist.
    Virus TI2 Darkstar | Virus TI2 Desktop | Sub 37 | Voyager RME | Machinedrum | Analog Four | Digitone | MPC Live | NI Maschine+
    Mac OS 13.5.1 (Ventura) | Cubase Pro 11.0 | Ableton Live 9.6 | Logic 10.4 | MainStage 3.4 | NI Komplete Ultimate 13 | RME Fireface UFX+

    It's audible, i have no idea how many ms apart. It ruins the transients punch of the overall sound. It's also very intermittent. If it was constant i could off set for it.


    Thank you for being interested. Have you tried it on yours, can you try?


    If we set the filer envelope to an extreme and have it more as a click, it becomes vary apparent. It might of being Cubase current sloppy midi timing but Cubase isn't broke that way. Cubase records its out of time the same time on the time.

    No I haven't tried, but I wouldn't expect it to be accurate either!


    A MIDI Note On event consist if 3 bytes. With the MIDI protocol's transfer rate of 31250 Bit/s, it takes 0,96ms for a single Note On event to be transmitted. And since MIDI is a serial protocol, any simultaneous events will be transmitted sequentially (in random order). Thus in a 4 notes chord, the spread of the notes will be 3,84 ms at least! That's the theoretical minimum, and quite noticable. Add any other events on that port, and there will be more lag.


    IMO, the only way to get simultaneous (note) events, is by not using MIDI.

    Bass Player and Synthesist.
    Virus TI2 Darkstar | Virus TI2 Desktop | Sub 37 | Voyager RME | Machinedrum | Analog Four | Digitone | MPC Live | NI Maschine+
    Mac OS 13.5.1 (Ventura) | Cubase Pro 11.0 | Ableton Live 9.6 | Logic 10.4 | MainStage 3.4 | NI Komplete Ultimate 13 | RME Fireface UFX+

    I'm confused... I understand the midi timing issue but how can i not use midi? In my OP i put 'midi triggering the sound' so people wouldn't think it was my sloppy playing. The notes are drawn in the piano roll and i'm using USB.


    It doesn't explain why most of the time it is close enough to sound right and it only does it on the Hypersaw.

    I just did a little experiment to confirm my theory: Made a new patch as indicated above, Hypersaw with a extremely fast and strong resonant filter. Using MainStage, I set up a track with an Arpeggiator for Chords in Latch mode, so that it would repeat any chord I pressed. Then did the same with the Virus Arpeggiator in the aforementioned preset. The chords played by the Virus Arpeggiator were definitely more consistent and focused. The chords played over MIDI had random variations. Some sounded pretty tight, others showed a clear rattle of the transients. But none of the chords play over MIDI had the same impact as the ones played by the Virus Arpeggiator. The more notes the chords had, the more obvious it became (e.g. a 4 note chord in the right hand accompanied by a root-fifth-ocatve in the left).


    Just to get a better understanding of the impact of the MIDI connection, I tried using Virus Control (MIDI over USB) and the Virus detached from USB and sending the notes through a classic MIDI cable from the out of my NI Komplete Audio interface.


    The results were pretty similar. Using the USB was maybe a tad more focused but it's hard to tell just by ear.

    Bass Player and Synthesist.
    Virus TI2 Darkstar | Virus TI2 Desktop | Sub 37 | Voyager RME | Machinedrum | Analog Four | Digitone | MPC Live | NI Maschine+
    Mac OS 13.5.1 (Ventura) | Cubase Pro 11.0 | Ableton Live 9.6 | Logic 10.4 | MainStage 3.4 | NI Komplete Ultimate 13 | RME Fireface UFX+

    Wicked. Just to be clear though. What i'm on about here isn't the same thing as the other thread I was helping in. Although there might be a relation. I'm not using the midi port to trigger my Virus, I'll always use the USB. When I referred to midi in this thread, i'm referring to the piano roll, drawn in notes... Most notes sound perfectly in line to my ears, then i'll get 1 that clearly triggers like it's been strummed. The difference is so great it's destroys the sound. I never thought of trying the arp, great idea, i'll try that today.


    Thanks again. Appreciate you doing some test. I should probably load up an audio example.

    Thanks for your clarification regarding USB vs MIDI.


    Zitat von mitchiemasha


    Thanks again. Appreciate you doing some test. I should probably load up an audio example.


    Please do so. I am not 100% sure we are talking about the same difference.
    However, for most sounds and applications, the MIDI timing will be close enough to sound tight. But you definitely run into problems when using lots of controllers or doing orchstrations with hundreds of notes.

    Bass Player and Synthesist.
    Virus TI2 Darkstar | Virus TI2 Desktop | Sub 37 | Voyager RME | Machinedrum | Analog Four | Digitone | MPC Live | NI Maschine+
    Mac OS 13.5.1 (Ventura) | Cubase Pro 11.0 | Ableton Live 9.6 | Logic 10.4 | MainStage 3.4 | NI Komplete Ultimate 13 | RME Fireface UFX+

    Ok, that's definitely something different than I meant. Those notes really fall apart!
    What I observed was more of a "smear" in the attack.


    Would you mind making that (admittedly very nice) sound available, so I could do a couple of tests?

    Bass Player and Synthesist.
    Virus TI2 Darkstar | Virus TI2 Desktop | Sub 37 | Voyager RME | Machinedrum | Analog Four | Digitone | MPC Live | NI Maschine+
    Mac OS 13.5.1 (Ventura) | Cubase Pro 11.0 | Ableton Live 9.6 | Logic 10.4 | MainStage 3.4 | NI Komplete Ultimate 13 | RME Fireface UFX+

    Einmal editiert, zuletzt von ozon ()

    BTW, since you mentioned the ModWheel: do you send any controller events during that sequence?


    If yes, what happens if you delete all of them. And what if you use yor DAWs function to reduce controller events.

    Bass Player and Synthesist.
    Virus TI2 Darkstar | Virus TI2 Desktop | Sub 37 | Voyager RME | Machinedrum | Analog Four | Digitone | MPC Live | NI Maschine+
    Mac OS 13.5.1 (Ventura) | Cubase Pro 11.0 | Ableton Live 9.6 | Logic 10.4 | MainStage 3.4 | NI Komplete Ultimate 13 | RME Fireface UFX+

    The mod wheel isn't used here. Slope on the filter is creating the rising effect. Using the mod wheel increases the slope and turns the volume down a lil. I'll add it now. I'm sure it's simply 2 Hypersaws.

    Ok got it. That's definitely not a MIDI timing issue.


    It also happens:
    - With a single Classic oscillator
    - With the internal arpeggiator (Chord mode, 1/2, Note length 100%)
    - With the filter fully open and the Amp Env set to a very short decay


    If you switch off unison mode, the strum is gone, if you add more voices in unison mode the strum is stronger.


    Whether this is on purpose or not, I can't tell, but it seems that unison mode not only randomly shifts detune, panorama, and LFOs, but also the filter and amp envelopes. That's interesting, and different from the unison mode of other VA synths. Would be nice if there was also a control for the "tightness" of the unison especially for pluck, arp and bass sounds.

    Bass Player and Synthesist.
    Virus TI2 Darkstar | Virus TI2 Desktop | Sub 37 | Voyager RME | Machinedrum | Analog Four | Digitone | MPC Live | NI Maschine+
    Mac OS 13.5.1 (Ventura) | Cubase Pro 11.0 | Ableton Live 9.6 | Logic 10.4 | MainStage 3.4 | NI Komplete Ultimate 13 | RME Fireface UFX+

    Gefällt mir 1

    YES!!! You've found it. It's Unison, not the Hypersaw. When i tested it on Classic I must of forgot to turn on Unison.


    I guess, as a work around, I'd have to use other methods for stereo widening and leave the Unison off. Unless we can find another solution. I wish Access was still alive for updates, Unison 'tightness' is an essential feature request. As it stands it's unusable on these type of sounds. I can't think of any reason why this apparently random off set would sound good. Especially on these big enveloped sounds intended to sound as 1.


    I'd of thought the lfo phase would of dealt with this but it doesn't. Shifting the OSC in and out.

    Zitat von mitchiemasha

    I've changed the thread title, for others in the future.


    Thanks.


    I added this request Unison "Tightness" Control

    Bass Player and Synthesist.
    Virus TI2 Darkstar | Virus TI2 Desktop | Sub 37 | Voyager RME | Machinedrum | Analog Four | Digitone | MPC Live | NI Maschine+
    Mac OS 13.5.1 (Ventura) | Cubase Pro 11.0 | Ableton Live 9.6 | Logic 10.4 | MainStage 3.4 | NI Komplete Ultimate 13 | RME Fireface UFX+