Interesting news from Gearslutz Forum - Possible permanent solution for timing issues.

  • Just found this interesting gem on Gearslutz! This guy may have solved timing issues once and for all:


    https://www.gearslutz.com/boar…s-pops-timing-issues.html


    This post is how Focusrite and I, not Access, resolved issues that I have experienced with my Virus TI2 desktop for the last several years. Focusrite has great tech support, and my hats off to them for suggesting something that is not mentioned anywhere in the Virus TI2 manual, and what basically shouldn't even work!I thought about putting the "punchline" and the resolution here, but I'm going to make y'all read a bit! Prepare for a long story. But I think the details may help out some folks that are experiencing similar issues. To know where to go, you need to know where you've been.


    Act I: Backstory:My Virus TI2 has always given me grief. Because I love to use Virus Control (VC) and the audio-over-USB feature to give me three stereo channels plus a side-chain channel, I did not give up and resort to the whole "scrap that USB connection and use a MIDI cable and audio cables" idea which is plastered all over the Internet, including the Virus forums.Several years ago, huge spikes in audio-latencies caused massive amounts of pops and crackles in the audio stream, which were coincidentally caused by a Gigabyte brand mobo interfering with a Nvidia graphics card. Swapped in a Radeon card, and it worked better, but not great. Retired the Gigabyte board and bought an older-model ASUS board, while still running the Nvidia graphics card. Things improved for a while, but never 100%. Forcing the graphics card via registry hacks to always run in full-power mode improved latencies, pops, and crackles quite a bit, but again never 100%. Fast-forward about a year from that point in time. I built and upgraded my PC, purposefully seeking out a motherboard tested to have the lowest latencies available: an MSI board. Coupled with the same Nvidia graphics card, the pops and crackles still remained! Intermission:Let me break the story here to discuss my particular, studio setup. In the setup I have, of course, the PC running either Ableton or Sonar as my DAW. Connected via USB cable is the Virus TI2. Connected via Firewire cable is a Focusrite Saffire Pro 24 interface. An Alesis AI3 analog-to-optical ADAT interface connects via TOSLINK fiber-optic to the Saffire. A gaggle of synths connect to the AI3. Now, in order for it all to work, the Saffire is configured in MixControl to sync to ADAT. The Alesis AI3 provides the master clock signal, as it only has one ADAT connection. (NOTE: It can indeed operate as a slave, but since the Saffire only has an ADAT-in port, this configuration is not possible). All projects in Ableton/Sonar use 48kHz. Other sampling rates do not play nicely or just don't work at all.


    Act II: Back to the Backstory:Now with that out of the way, here is where I mention the weird stuff. With my particular setup, with the Virus TI2 playing (and soloed), I would get one audio "pop" every 74 seconds. This would happen even with the most simplest of patches. So scratch what the forums say about the DSP being overloaded. Anyway, the "pop" would happen on the nose at every 74 seconds--only in the Virus TI2 audio stream--all other clips and sounds in Ableton/Sonar play error-free. But why 74 seconds? Perhaps it's a clue.So maybe it's a timing/sync issue? With that in mind, I changed the sampling rates of projects in Ableton Live. Though the audio inputs don't work from the AI3 (some being just harsh static noise), now the "pop" occurs at a different time while playing just the Virus TI2, i.e. the interval is something other than 74 seconds! (I don't recall the exact number). Ah ha, another clue!!!The second test is to take the ADAT-sync completely out of the equation and set the Saffire to be the master-clock. Though the AI3 is now completely inoperable in this configuration, absolutely no "pops" occur while playing the Virus TI2! To confirm, I set the Virus to play a MIDI loop for 10 minutes straight. Not one "pop" was heard.So now what? I need the AI3 to be the master, yet it seems the Saffire is not syncing properly for some reason. Is "timing jitter" the problem? How so if all audio except the Virus TI2 plays flawlessly? It's as if Virus Control and/or the driver is not grabbing the correct clock-source and sending it via USB to the Virus TI2 hardware.So a problem with Virus? Then contact Access. Their cookie-cutter response back to my inquiry was this: "Have you tried connecting the Virus to a different USB port?" Not knocking Access or its tech support; they're good people and give timely responses, but trying a different USB port, including buying a PCIe multi-TT USB card, has been done years ago! It is not the solution I'm looking for! Been there, done that! So maybe it's the Saffire interface? Then contact Focusrite. And here, folks, is the solution...


    Act III: The Grand Finale:Connect the S/PDIF-Out on the Saffire to the S/PDIF-In on the Virus TI2.


    Act IV: Conclusion:The solution is simple yet ridiculous, but it worked. It's ridiculous because it's something that was never considered...not by me after all these years and not by Access, the manufacturer of the product. After all, the USB connection to the Virus TI2 should be the end-all-be-all connection, right? Another cable should not be required, especially for timing and sync. But it worked. No more "pops" at 74 seconds. No more crackles. Even the arpeggiator and timing effects (e.g. tape delay) are dead on with no out-of-pitch anomalies.NOTE: Use a S/PDIF cable, not just an RCA-plugged unbalanced audio cable. A S/PDIF cable is a 75 ohm impedance coax cable.It freaking worked. A solution reported nowhere as far as I can tell, scouring the Internet high and low for help. A solution unwritten in the Virus manual, FAQ, or known to Tech Support. And this is huge...possibly helping many people with similar issues all over the world. Think about how many Virus TI and TI's were sold after their owners abandoned hope.Thank you Focusrite. P.S. - Hope you enjoyed the read...


    Addendum: I should clarify that the S/PDIF cable is connected to the Virus in addition to the USB cable. But that's it! Well, I guess there is a little bit more, so check the following:In the Virus' CONFIG menu, make sure the Audio Clock Source is set to AUTO. With the USB connected, the Frequency should show SYNCED TO HOST. This setting cannot be changed if the USB is connected.When the S/PDIF cabled is connected, the LCD screen on the Virus will momentarily display a message. Though it seems odd, in my case, the message is "Clock problem at SPDIF Input." Despite this error message, the timing indeed syncs to the S/PDIF, which is in fact the Master Clock (i.e. ADAT-slave) signal output from the Saffire. I'm running the latest OS, version 5.1.1.0.

    Indulgence gets us friends, but truth gets us hatred.

    OB-6, Polivoks, Polivoks Pro, Virus TI x2, Waldorf M, MS-20, MS2000, Radias, Minilogue, Minitaur, Argon8, Erebus, Alpha Juno 2, TR-8S, Xio 49, Ultranova, Microfreak,

    Einmal editiert, zuletzt von djantimatter ()

  • Really really really intersting, thanks for sharing this. I've a 75 ohm spdif cable somewhere around and I'm gonna try.

    -Windows 10 Pro 64bit DAW (Asus ROG Maximus XI Hero + i9-9900)

    -Steinberg Cubase 10 + Steinberg CC121 Controller
    -Steinberg MR816 CSX + Behringer ADA8200
    -iConnectivity MIO10
    -Virus TI2 P0lar
    -Waldorf Pulse (1)
    -Waldorf Blofeld

    -Yamaha AN1x
    -Yamaha Reface DX
    -Clavia Nord Modular G1 Expanded

    -Moog Minitaur
    -Maschine MK3

    -Elektron Octatrack MKII

    -Adam A7X
    https://soundcloud.com/daksha

  • Interesting indeed. These days, ever since the the later versions of MacOS, I've not been having these problems. Never had the problems when I was on self-built PCs.


    USB would seem to be a generally not-ideal mechanism for propagating audio timing, due to potential latencies which could and can occur for various reasons.


    Using S/PDIF, Wordclock or similar could very well be a better method for clocking multiple devices. Any timing latencies on those connections are insignificant.


    A single master clock unit, could help people with multiple units. SOS did an article on clock master units, with some useful background on jitter etc.


    http://www.soundonsound.com/te…need-digital-master-clock

  • Gonna try this too as I have a focusrite slave as well...this was an enjoyable read, thank you!


    edit: just tried this...i'm stunned.


    Last week i had to record a 1:24 continuous melody for a project, not an arp but a very fast staccato type of melody with power chords - I ended up recording it in 4 or 5 parts because of those syncing issues. And even then I had to further quantize my recording. Oh the pain...
    With spdif in...all recording done in 1 take. no syncing issues whatsoever. it's like a proper vst plugin!


    My only issue (which was here before) is that to make it properly sync I need to turn on my virus and THEN my pc. Not sure if thats how its supposed to be but its a very simple workaround. Windows 8.1 64bit here.


    Djantimatter, you have my outmost respect. I'm in love with my virus again. Thank you and bless you.

  • I have a similar setup, soundcard is a Steinberg MR816-CSX with an ADA8200 as optical expansion, clocked as slave to the MR by BNC cable. 16 ins in total.
    I added the SPDIF cable going from Steinberg card to Virus.
    VC and 3 usb audio tracks in use + 1 analog out. 4 virus parts, 3 are arpeggios, one is a lead with heavy reverb and synched delay.
    My Virus always worked quite good, but out of time arps/fxs have always been there: stop and play again was enought to go on composing, but not if bouncing a 10 min. song. Sooner or later, the out of synch problem was there, bounced with the track...so I had to bounce part by part, quarter by quarter to stay safe.
    Not today. 12 hours on Cubase with Virus running...solid, in time.
    Soon to shout victory, but that's today report.
    Anyway, this is not surprising: my ADA8200 had problems when connected to the MR only by opt cable...even if it is supposed to transfer clock correctly. Problem solved after adding the BNC connection. The concept of adding clock by spdif to the virus is the same.
    Now works, and time will tell.
    Reading was pleasant and "sharing is caring" :thumbup:<3
    Thanks again!

    -Windows 10 Pro 64bit DAW (Asus ROG Maximus XI Hero + i9-9900)

    -Steinberg Cubase 10 + Steinberg CC121 Controller
    -Steinberg MR816 CSX + Behringer ADA8200
    -iConnectivity MIO10
    -Virus TI2 P0lar
    -Waldorf Pulse (1)
    -Waldorf Blofeld

    -Yamaha AN1x
    -Yamaha Reface DX
    -Clavia Nord Modular G1 Expanded

    -Moog Minitaur
    -Maschine MK3

    -Elektron Octatrack MKII

    -Adam A7X
    https://soundcloud.com/daksha


  • Don't thank me! Praise rightly goes to the guy who found this solution!

    Indulgence gets us friends, but truth gets us hatred.

    OB-6, Polivoks, Polivoks Pro, Virus TI x2, Waldorf M, MS-20, MS2000, Radias, Minilogue, Minitaur, Argon8, Erebus, Alpha Juno 2, TR-8S, Xio 49, Ultranova, Microfreak,

  • Quite interesting. Thanks for sharing!

    Bass Player and Synthesist.
    Virus TI2 Darkstar | Virus TI2 Desktop | Sub 37 | Voyager RME | Machinedrum | Analog Four | Digitone | MPC Live | NI Maschine+
    Mac OS 13.5.1 (Ventura) | Cubase Pro 11.0 | Ableton Live 9.6 | Logic 10.4 | MainStage 3.4 | NI Komplete Ultimate 13 | RME Fireface UFX+

  • Mmhh...had some arps going out of time now...so this isn't working for me. Anyway thanks for sharing!

    -Windows 10 Pro 64bit DAW (Asus ROG Maximus XI Hero + i9-9900)

    -Steinberg Cubase 10 + Steinberg CC121 Controller
    -Steinberg MR816 CSX + Behringer ADA8200
    -iConnectivity MIO10
    -Virus TI2 P0lar
    -Waldorf Pulse (1)
    -Waldorf Blofeld

    -Yamaha AN1x
    -Yamaha Reface DX
    -Clavia Nord Modular G1 Expanded

    -Moog Minitaur
    -Maschine MK3

    -Elektron Octatrack MKII

    -Adam A7X
    https://soundcloud.com/daksha