do you use a hub in between?
best, marc
I've tried just about every combination. A hub, a dedicated PCie card, a direct cable, etc. It seems to run okay with simple productions such as the virus demo song. But as things get more complex, tracks are added, external midi, UAD-2, it seems downright impossible to not have anomalies.
And yet the Virus still suffers from timing problems and pitch anomalies when it's plugged into its own USB port (confirmed in system profiler) on a mac pro.
Hello, using the front panel in non TI plugin mode:
Sequencer mode is better for auditioning patches than multi mode, however you cannot save a sequence of course without first copying it to a multi bank.
A storing destination > Multi edit buffer exists for this purpose, why not also the other way around?
Say you want to start from a saved multi but want to copy that to sequencer mode and work with it from there. I propose a new destination in the store menu of multi mode:
Destination -> Seq mode buffer.
This way you can audition patches in multi mode without having to use the search function, and easily copy them back and forth at will.
Also, because there is presently no way that I know of to "blank out" sequence mode and start fresh with no patches loaded, this could solve that problem as well.
first of all you can create a multi instrument with 16 tracks associated with 16 MIDI channels. but you need to do this right when you start. there is also an option to create a new track with the next MIDI channel but this option apparently needs to be fixed.
hth, marc
The virus probably works best multi-timbrally when setup as a track stack now.
I would sincerely hope that they are actually working on a new thunderbolt based virus. Then there really can be no more excuses with regard to timing and pitch problems; it's all their code at that point.
I have a better idea that could potentially solve a lot of problems. The TI plugin is sample-accurate. Does it really need to be?
If the note and controller information was simply MIDI data, that's not much and should be no problem to keep up with. Meanwhile, the audio streams would function in the same manner as any cheap USB audio interface. They do not have pitch, sync and reliability problems at all.
So, is it possible to lose the sample accuracy?
Next, it wouldn't hurt to have a team dedicated to getting to the bottom of these bugs and fixing them, instead of saying, "well, if you can't recreate the problem, we can't fix it."
Yeah.
Next, it wouldn't hurt to have a team dedicated to getting to the bottom of these bugs and fixing them, instead of saying, "well, if you can't recreate the problem, we can't fix it."
I wouldn't count on it. It's time to admit that the USB implementation is a failure. Maybe they can do it again with thunderbolt, at that point there can be no more excuses about timing problems or bandwidth.
I am still seeing those annoying keThread::run - delay messages on OS X.
I am right now having to configure asl.conf so that debug level messages from the kernel aren't logged. Not a real solution to the problem.
Please remove them from the release version of the driver. They are annoying, take megabytes of space on the disk, and possibly slow down the system. As you know, syscalls don't come for cheap, so why do you make so many syscalls?
What a bizarre thing to complain about.
robg:
Does this mean that you don't use TI-plugin at all? If so, this means that there quite many (?) users using their Virus like any other synth. This should be a quite serious signal for Access developers: Total Integration isn't so total after all, if just some users can take benefit from it. Personally I am starting a new project and maybe I'll do the same: give up TI and use Virus via midi. (I have had issues with OS5 with Logic and latency is one big problem. Other thing is that TI has crashed Logic quite many times.) Or then I will give it one another chance...?
So TI is a nice idea, but is it "just an idea" at the moment?
I don't use it anymore, maybe occasionally for sound design only, but it's not reliable for playback. I think the implementation is fundamentally flawed. I believe this is because it's trying to be sample-accurate and doesn't need to be. They could have made it just send midi information over usb (and the audio streams back)..it probably would have been better that way, but I'm no developer..
Alles anzeigenHi,
Yeah I did mean dedicated USB card as opposed to audio interface.
I ended up buying a 2 port Startech card. Not much choice out there for 2 port cards and could not find a single 1 port card, although I'd expect that really.
Card works great straight off the bat. Unfortunately the Virus latency is still there, not any worse, not improved, so I've wasted my money by the looks of it.
Have also purchased a new cable although I haven't swapped it yet. I expect no improvement whatsoever.
My computer is 4 core i7 at 4.6ghz with top end components from the power supply right up to the water cooling system. I spared no expense and am now considering the computer to be exempt from the problem.
I will still give virus the benefit of the doubt for now and will consider the sequencer as number 1 suspect.
You won't overcome latency and the other problems with a dedicated card I'm afraid. I've gone back to midi/audio cables and that's about as solid as it can get.
I think he was asking about a USB card here, not a sound card.
Alles anzeigen
We agree on this point. I wasn't even talking about the TI's USB issues here.
A lot of hardware MIDI sequencers/controllers don't suffer from jitter. I'm not saying MIDI is flawed.
I'm saying implementing accurate MIDI I/O on a PC running a non realtime operating system is very hard to get right ; and can never be guaranted to always work.
I know, but it applies to all of us who run Windows XP, and to some extent, Windows 7.
Exactly. FL devs didn't manage to get it right, for example. And I suspect that Access devs want the VC to also work inside FL studio.
By implementing sample accurate timing - i.e not doing real-time synchronous MIDI output - they avoid such issues.
I can't speak about FL studio. However, I think that with any modern PC running a major daw such as Logic, Cubase, Nuendo, Sonar, etc.. you will find MIDI stability and timing issues to be VERY rare, if non-existant. Even in the 2000's running Windows XP. My first serious daw was cubase in 02. No problems at all, and I am the norm, not the exception. 
Have a look here : http://www.soundonsound.com/so…icles/cubasetech_1207.htm
This is a bit of a red herring. First of all, it's from 2007. Second of all, I never had any MIDI timing problems in 2007, or anytime before that. Not to say that they cannot exist, however that has more to do with other hardware/host problems or midi interface issues (as the article explains).
MIDI is still the standard and extremely reliable in professional environments for a reason. The TI's USB issues are not caused by MIDI itself.
Alles anzeigeni can understand that looking at this forum one can that impression. but i can look at our support cue and this show something different. peaks aside, support is very mellow these days. you're welcome to work with support and if we find something that needs to be fixed we will do our best to get it done.
a dedicated USB2 card is neither necessary nor helpful in many cases. if you, e.g. use uaudio PCI cards you will find out that it works surprisingly bad. those cards hog the PCI bus.
i can answer that question for you again: it is not an audio problem, it is a MIDI problem. the midi timing events send over USB get delayed and therefore the timing is bad. the glitches you see are probably a side effect.
best, marc
We may be getting somewhere now, thank you. However, a couple of facts that seem to contradict the thing about MIDI:
1. The pitch is affected.. I'm not understanding why a late or early MIDI note message would change the pitch.
2. When using the Virus with no plugin and in SEQ mode or multi mode, I use the same USB cable in midi mode, using the "Virus TI Synth" midi device in logic. Timing is perfect, no problems whatsoever.
So, if MIDI is indeed affecting the plugin, is it a case of insufficient bandwidth?.. midi+audio is too much but midi by itself is ok? If it's not bandwidth then couldn't this be optimized better?
incidentally I have also noticed that pitch anomalies sometimes are related to how busy the host CPU is.
eventually yes. use a usb2 hub in between and see if it helps.
marc
It doesn't, not even a dedicated usb 2 card results in a perfect experience, there are always some glitches - making the whole thing unreliable enough to warrant midi mode only and no plugin. The only reason I haven't ditched it completely is because I love the virus's sound.
Can you pass on my original question (about why USB sound cards don't have this problem) to a developer and get back to me? Sorry man, I know you're doing your best, but you have to admit that the volume of support problems about this would be far fewer with a total re-write and re-design.. is that possible?
In 1 in / 3 out mode there are actually 4 stereo pairs streaming nonstop. Maybe changing your Virus's mode to no in / 2 out will result in better performance. Also I hear that the new 5.0.1 beta is very good with sync, maybe it will work for you (remember to backup your system in order to roll back if something goes wrong).
Regarding the shared USB hubs, you can try and disable some of the onboard devices (such as webcam, IR communications, etc.) so that they will not take any bandwidth by surprise. An external hub will help, but only in the right configuration - if it's not a multi-TT hub, the Virus must be the only USB1.1 device connected.
I'm about to make a bold statement, and that is every virus TI plugin setup in the world is glitchy in some way, none of them are perfect. Some are worse than others, but all have some form of timing/sync/pitch weirdness happening on some level, REGARDLESS of what usb port it is on.
So, my original question for Access remains. Why was it designed this way, and why do other USB audio devices not have this problem?
Alles anzeigenHi,
Sample accuracy may be more important than it looks. Let's say you have an arpegiator-like pattern of 16th notes at 180 bpm, you have nearly 80ms per note. AFAIK, and from a lot testing, under Windows, it's very hard to get a real-time accuracy better than 15ms. If you're controlling a synth by MIDI, it means your synth will sometimes receive a note 15ms late. It's clearly audible, the pattern just doesn't sound right.
You can do this test with the FL studio MIDI output, other DAWs seems to cope better, but there's no completely reliable way to get hard-real time MIDI sending under Windows, especially if your CPU load increases. The best of the workarounds seems to trigger MIDI sending based on callback from the audio driver, because they're frequent and accurate (which means your timing accuracy now depends on your buffer size).
I'm not saying sample accuracy is needed, because 80ms is a lot of samples (a little more than 3K at 44100Hz), and clearly, the audio could be out off by a lot of samples before we would notice.
I'm saying good old real-time MIDI, under Windows, does not guarantee you a musically-acceptable timing accuracy.
PS: I'm talking about Windows XP here (Windows 7 has been enhanced on this point).
No offense, but this is pretty off-base. MIDI does not fluctuate by as much as 15 ms randomly, ever. I can't speak for FL, and I have heard that it kind of sucks for midi, but in logic pro and cubase MIDI is always dead-on.
You do have to compensate for round-trip delay with regard to audio buffers when monitoring audio through the DAW, but that is not the issue here.. in the standard midi/audio mode it's always spot-on perfect, and has been since the early days of MIDI+computer tracking in the late 80s - early 90s.
try using another one. proper or not, the port you're using causes (MIDI related) trouble ...
marc
With every other port on the mac pro the TI reports that it is being shared by another device. Is there a better usb port than the one that is "by itself?"
Hello , I have a question that I hope access will be able to answer.
I have a virus TI, the plugin mode "mostly" works, but occasionally I get pitch anomalies and timing shifts. Everything is configured correctly according to the guide, I'm using the proper USB port on a Mac pro.
My question, why is it that a USB sound card doesn't ever have these kinds of problems? I'm genuinely curious about how this is designed. Is it because the virus is sample accurate? Does it really NEED to be sample accurate, when most hardware synths work fine with only midi timing?
Does the stream stop and start when playback stops and starts, or is it continuous?
There are tons and tons of people experiencing problems like this for years, and for the above reasons I have abandoned the use of the plugin, I'd really like to continue to use it, and I'd really like to know why this is such a problem for so many people while regular USB audio cards are capable of flawlessly handling 4-6 stereo streams.
Has access considered a complete re-write of how the TI interfaces with the computer? For example sending a set of simple, continuous and reliable audio streams to the host, with MIDI type of data controlling the notes and CCs. Is this possible? As far as I know, USB audio is not reliable for sample-accurate data.. and I don't understand why sample accuracy is needed?
Thanks
I just can't seem to select a Ram location with out changing the patch I'm trying so save. Any thoughts?
I'll try VC as well. That seems easier.
Thanks.
you can switch to multi mode in order to use the other 16 edit buffers to audition other sounds, then switch back to single
