Just out of curiosity, have you been able to push your system to 90-100% CPU running the Komplete 6, how did it handle it?
Like a champ.
I was doing all this testing as part of benchmarks between Windows 7 and Windows 8 on all those interfaces. I pushed the KA6 well into the 90% CPU range before audio broke down. Full details here.
Those are all the interfaces I own, and I don't have experience with any others. I've only done very minimal experimenting with ASIO4ALL since I use interfaces. It never caused me issues like you described though.
The Virus appears to have some serious buffering going on in interface mode, perhaps to counteract the heavy latency, because I have pushed that thing hard before it cracks.
If you ever do go the PCIe route, look for a modest graphics card. I've seen numerous complaints of super high-end, power-hungry graphics cards eating up PCIe bandwidth in DAW situations. (Those cards tend to be pretty noisy in the studio, too!)
I replied to your other thread about this...
I also definitely need a new sound card, my Audigy crackles at 60% CPU with 22ms latency on a PCI bus whereas the Virus doesn't crackle at all, even to 100% and it's on USB. I did like the Audigy 2 for it's vast number of inputs, 1/4" and RCA but I can move to all 1/4" and I do need XLR inputs with 48v (have a condensor and dynamic mic).
Both interfaces I mentioned earlier will suit all your stated needs, and will outperform the Virus's USB interface mode. I did latency testing on the KA6, the UltraLite, the Virus TI Desktop, and my MOTU PCIe-424, and here are the results... couldn't calculate "actual" final results on the virus because its latency is so high it interferes with measurements. Lower scores are better.
[Blockierte Grafik: http://i.imgur.com/79efP.png]
EDIT: The results were all recorded at 256 samples, 44.1Khz, 32-bits.
EDIT 2: Also keep in mind that assuming your interface and drivers are functioning properly, the "crackling audio" threshold at a given sample buffer setting is determined by the specs of your PC more than the interface. Chipset, CPU, drivers, OS, bus saturation, power distribution all play a part.
Have you tried using the free ASIO4ALL driver? It pretty much eliminates latency on traditional sound cards. As far as I can tell, the great majority of Windows-based music producers who don't have full-on audio interfaces use ASIO4ALL instead of their sound cards' native ASIO drivers.
I don't know what your budget or I/O needs are, but I've successfully used the Native Instruments Audio Kontrol 6 with my virus. It's USB (make sure to use USB 2.0 ports, not 3.0), and its stats/features are quite good for its price.
For twice the IO at twice the price, I've also had success with the MOTU UltraLite-mk3. I have the firewire-only version, but the current model is USB/FW hybrid.
Conclusion: this playback latency (b) seems to be very much same, no matter if you use analog or USB-outs setup.
This has been my experience, as well. Changing the outputs didn't improve or worsen the situation. But results will vary depending on your setup.
The only thing that worked for me was enabling Live mode in the plugin. But I haven't tested whether that affected recorded timing; just live playback. I pretty much stick to Cubase since it's been problem-free there.
What does this exatcly mean? I've tried to use either Virus as my Output Device in Logic > Preferences > Devices OR my Motu Soundcard. Both options work similarly: Virus is 1/24 delayed compared to Logic metronome (or any other plugin sound).
I must confes, I don't understand what means to "use USB outs" (instead of analog outs)...? If I choose Virus as my Output Device and then Virus is USB-soundcard, isn't it correct to listen to it via its stereo outputs, right? Or is there something very basic thing missing in my setup?
The Virus's default behavior is to use a virtual USB audio channel like a software plugin instead of sending audio over the physical analog ports on the back of the unit. If you right-click the little D for a part in the Virus's multi menu you have an option of which output jack (or pair) to use. Since USB can easily become saturated, some folks recommend using the analog outputs instead of the USB outputs (you'd need to run cables from the Virus's audio outs to inputs in your audio interface, and possibly set up input buses in your DAW to receive the audio).
Here's what the output menu looks like in Virus Control.
[Blockierte Grafik: http://i.imgur.com/eTlrG.png]
All of the above said, on my system I've encountered noticeable latency (regardless of output choice) while using the Virus from Ableton Live- so bad that it's virtually unplayable for live applications. In my case it's closer to 1/16th note latency (100-125ms). I have found that clicking the Live button (slightly obscured in the lower left of my screenshot) improves the latency to the point where it's at least playable- but it's still noticeable. Thing is, on Steinberg Cubase, I don't experience any noticeable latency at all, and I've never had to use the Live button. I also own several other external synthesizers- both modern and vintage- and have never noticed latency issues with them in Ableton Live. Pretty weird.
Depending on your input/output configuration and your audio interface, the Virus gives you up to 3 stereo analog pairs and 3 stereo USB pairs. Virus Control lets you use either L or R channels for mono outs, so you could conceivably have 12 parts going out to 12 different channels.
Your polyphony wouldn't be too hot though.
If you're really not going to be doing any real recording/producing with Live, then Intro will be enough for you. They only limit the number of plugins you load in Intro to 4.
Also, pretty sure Intro/Lite are the same thing? Maybe "Lite" is the branding they use with versions bundled with 3rd party hardware, but as far as I know there are only 3 functional varieties of Live: Intro, Live, and Suite
Here's the Live 8 feature comparison. Sounds like Intro will do it for you... and they offer pretty nice upgrade pricing if you end up wanting more.
The TI2 line doesn't have any sequencing capabilities at all.
There's an arpeggiator for building patterns while notes are held down on a per-part basis, but I'm pretty sure that's not what you're talking about.
I don't think the TI2 has any kind of looper effect other than the Atomizer, which is more for glitch effects- not actual looping musical patterns as far as I know? (Never used it.)
Got any YouTube links showing the behavior you describe?
I was switching back and forth between Live and Cubase the other night when I noticed a distinct difference in my Virus's responsiveness on the two DAWs. In live, when I played a part on my keyboard, the latency between key press and hearing the note was at least 100ms- it was bad enough that when I played a part with 16th notes, I reflexively kept playing extra notes because I wasn't hearing what I'd just played soon enough.
If I switched the Virus Control plugin into Live mode, it reduced the delay to the point where I could play properly again, but it still felt a little off. I also switched the audio out on the Virus from USB out (the default) to analog out, and the perceived latency was exactly the same.
In Cubase, however, I had never even experimented with the Live mode in the plugin; it always just worked and felt natural in Cubase. With both USB-out and analog-out the latency is imperceptible.
Has anyone else experienced this? Is there something I can do (other than Live mode in the plugin) to bring the two DAWs closer in feel?
About my setup:
- Virus TI Desktop (USB connection)
- Keyboard: AKAI MPK49 (USB connection)
- Audio interface: MOTU PCIe-424 with 24I/O, set to 256 samples, 44.1Khz in both Cubase and Live.
- Repro steps: In each DAW, start with an empty project and add Virus Control to a MIDI track. Play a fast part (16th or 32nd notes) live on the MPK49.
I think I also tried using an External Instrument device in Live, to take Virus Control out of the picture, but I don't remember if I actually did that, or what the results might have been.
Thanks for the informative post. But I failed to mention that I know how to use just about every parameter, I just don't quite understand what combinations of values will get unique sounds. Does it all come down to experimentation? I guess I need to just keep tweaking knobs until it starts becoming second nature. Back to the DAW...
Thanks
-ted
Access's "boot camp" videos at the 1st link I posted are exactly that. They assume you know the parameters and show you how to exploit the Virus's unique capabilities for various sounds.
But really the Virus's synthesis engine is so deep, you could watch videos for days without getting a complete exploration of its capabilities.
People who say "Why get a Virus when you can get a plugin for less" have never used a Virus.
In the plugin itself, click the ? in the lower-right corner, then click Documentation > Tutorials to bring up a list of PDF tutorials on various topics.
Access also has a number of videos up about using the plugin, designing sounds, and integrating with different DAWs: http://virus.info/page/render/…ontact_and_resources.html
There's also a 4.5 hour for-pay video tutorial at Dance Music Production that covers pretty much every feature of the plugin: http://www.dancemusicproductio…ssions-05-access-virus-ti
OP, I did a lot of DAW benchmarks between Win 7 and Win 8 RTM (both 64-bit), on four different audio interfaces (including my Virus TI Desktop, running OS 4.5) and found that the audio interface (or specifically, the audio interface's drivers) has a lot to do with how well things work on Win 8. Two of my interfaces did really poorly on Win 8 (both after a Win7->Win8 upgrade install and also after a fresh Win 8 install on a separate partition), where as the other two worked pretty well. The Virus, in fact, was the only interface I tested that didn't suffer any performance reduction at all on Windows 8. The other three all suffered at least a little bit.
Other than simply using the audio interface feature of the Virus, though, I have no idea. I'm sticking to Win 7 for the foreseeable future.
Those spikes in your DPC Latency Checker results are scary. You can smooth things out a bit by disabling the C-states, EIST, and Turbo Boost in the BIOS CPU settings, but I'd be surprised if that totally fixed it (consistency is more important than raw power on a DAW PC, and all those features I mentioned result in erratic performance, for different reasons).
I have a Gigabyte board and didn't see an improvement in DAW performance when I took out my PCIe SoundBlaster and enabled the Azalea audio when I needed the PCIe slot for something else.
There's a driver on your system that's behaving badly. It might not have anything to do with audio. I seem to remember there's another tool you can use to track down bad drivers... DPC Latency Checker just tells you there's a problem- it just doesn't tell you what the problem is.
Did you have any success at using the Virus as a regular soundcard prior to testing? Check the config menu that the parameter "input thru" is at maximum, and that the volume knob is turned up. Also, only patching out 1 to in makes sense in this scenario. There are other ways to route the input within the Virus but they probably add latency.
Yes, I did experiment with its interface mode and I actually found it surprisingly capable in terms of its ability to withstand a high ASIO load. The latency values the driver reports at 256 samples are unusually high, though, which is why I wanted to try the benchmark to see if those numbers were accurate.
I did adjust input thru, and that seemed to have some effect (got different error results in the test tool), but there was still something blocking the actual test. I tried both direct patching, and patching through a patch bay. When I used the latter method, where I tap the virus out signal and send it back to input, the Virus out also passed through to a FireWire interface I had, and I could see the input volume meter go up on that interface (due to feedback through the Virus's ports), so signal is definitely moving through the Virus.
I am curious about these other routing methods you mentioned? I scoured the quick start guide and the manual, but the only information I found about the inputs was on how they can be used to modulate sounds, or a description of (only some) of the options in the Input Config screens.
Thanks.
Over the weekend I was doing some audio interface latency benchmarks with this program called RTL Utility. To run the program you need to patch at least one interface input to an output so the program can do round-trip testing. I got it to work fine with a MOTU UltraLite-mk3, MOTU PCIe-424, and Native Instruments Komplete Audio 6, but somehow was never able to properly patch the Virus.
I discovered the Inputs config screens, but none of my tweaks there seemed to make a difference.
Just curious if anyone else has gotten the test to work, and if so, how you did it?
Thanks.
Oh, my Virus is a new TI Desktop.
Hm, oldish thread. But in case you're still looking, I just picked up a MOTU 24I/O PCIe core system yesterday. 24 1/4" analog ins and outs, super low latency. No headphone jack, no effects, no XLR ports. Just ins and outs.
While Lidge's advice is what I'd do, there is an Ableton device called Utility which you can drag on tracks that lets you boost volume (among several other things). I've used it at least once before on a couple tracks whose source volume was simply too low.
I have a ti2 keyboard and it's amazing but the way my setup is set up I have to spin 90 degrees to the right to use it. The VC plugin is amazing but it actually works a lot better if you are twiddling knobs too, desktop is pretty small and will sit on your desk :>
That said the keys on the virus are absolutely amazing. Pads are also cool though, a must for programming drums imo.
I am a Cubase user as well. Do you find your Polar behaves well for playing live parts while recording? This is my biggest concern (with both the polar AND desktop). I keep seeing people complain about tracking delay with Virus synths- but it's tough to tell how much of that is the Virus, and how much is the PC/interface of the given user.
