Beiträge von Totty

Another update, but first off, apologies if these posts are long and arduous. I just hoped to document my research in case anyone else came across the same issues.

I did some more tests. And I was too hasty to claim victory using an old laptop. What I found is that the Virus is still going out of time but appears to be pitching the arp to adjust for it. Instead of a sudden click/pop when synchronisation is lost, the timing discrepancy is compensated by adjusting pitch. This shoots a hole in my theory that it may have been caused by Logic X. To add to this I boot camped into Windows 10 and installed Ableton 10. Same issue occurs. This all begs the question, is it my Virus? The evidence is mounting that it is. I'm sure this isn't news to many, as I've personally read years of some peoples issues. That's not to say all have an issue, but there's enough anecdotal info to suggest that a fair number do.

The next thing I asked, is what would cause this. Is it the USB cable/connection. I've tried too many cables and hubs/ports that it's inconceivable that all of these are an issue, across multiple machines and OSes too. Then I came up with the theory that it is a DSP issue. Maybe there is some internal synchronisation issue between the DSPs. As a result I did a timing test, to see how often this happens and it's reproducibility.

Using a stopwatch and a repeating arp pattern with a reverb/delay clocked to the tempo I recorded when this occurred. On average at 44.1 kHz the clicking/popping happened every 136 seconds. It may have been 134 to 138 to account for my margin of error. At 48 kHz this reduced to about 65 seconds. The interesting thing is that this "clock" is occurring regardless of when anything plays. I say this as when I first play the sequence the timing varies on the first run (as I am catching this timing cycle at various points). From then on it is quite frequent and predictable. I don't believe these numbers are fixed, I think they are dynamic depending on the setup. I also noticed that at times I could initiate more clicks/pops by twisting knobs and adjusting parameters. And that is where I began to feel that this is caused by possible DSP load balancing or a DSP problem, as this is a predictable but also dynamic problem. My TI has always had clicks on the external ins too.

After all this I got to the point where I've had to finally accept that my Virus is never going to work as reliably as I wish it would in TI mode. For more than a decade I have lived with this pain in the butt problem. I know I'm not the only one, but it still grinds. Moving forward and what to do about it I'm split.

Should I just keep it and run it as a hardware synth (sensible!)?

Buy a brand new one/buy another off eBay and compare this issue to determine if mine has a hardware issue or not? If so, cut my losses and use the new one, if it's the same - return it...

Hi again! Answering my own post here!

Not to be outdone I decided to really go to town and try every last avenue. I have an ancient 2006 MacBook Pro hanging around. It's smashed up and has no battery. The case is bent, dropped etc - you get the picture. Anyways I downloaded the latest/last OS 5 version that worked on Snow Leopard. After what appeared to be an age I got everything setup with Logic 9.

I wasn't expecting much so I didn't think twice using the visually worst USB cable I had (some old printer thing), loaded it all up, created a patch, added reverb/delay with it clocked as this often induces wobbly arp timing and clicks.

I played around for a while, tweaked a few things and...no...pops...no...clicks. I mean there was one when it started up but that's standard sometimes. I was like, ohh-kay. What's happening here then! Next I created a simple chord sequence to send to the patch to trigger the arp. I set it on an 8 bar loop and sat back and got hypnotised.

10 minutes later of various twiddling and actually beginning to enjoy this thing for the first time in over a decade and it was still playing back correctly. I was like WTF!!! This is unbelievable! Next I clicked on the Logic plugin icon to unload the TI plugin. The tail of the sound then clicked and wobbled. I stopped, and played some more notes, clicked the icon again and the clicks came again. It was 100% reproducible. It is like the GUI interaction in Logic was interrupting USB transmission.

This got me thinking again. On my main laptop with Mojave. Things usually get worse when I tweak knobs. Is this all caused by some interaction with the computer in the background and nothing to do with the Virus???

Next I reloaded everything back up in Mojave (Virus OS update required again...) and... back to the pops. The thing is, years ago I even went as far as clean installing my Mac to rule out some software interfering and it still happened. Whilst this isn't scientific, in my setup it appears to be caused by an OSX/LogicX interaction with the USB stream.

How to fix this? I don't think I can. I mean, I could reinstall Mojave again or maybe create a new user account. But it seems to be something deeper with the interruption. I wish Access was more forthcoming with this. I've wasted so so much time over the years as I absolutely love my Virus. I just wish to use it how it's intended.

IMHO, it is driver related and maybe different computers are more susceptible to this.

However:

• 3 Macs with OSX Mojave/El Capitan/High Sierra/LogicX = Pitch wobbles with arps & pops/clicks
• 1 Ancient Mac with Snow Leopard/Logic 9 = almost perfect performance

I don't know! What gives!

Hi there!

After consigning my Virus TI Pølar to the cupboard for many years, I recently got it out again. I must say I've missed its sound. It really is a synth with something special about it. Why Access cannot develop it further (even with better connectivity to modern systems) is a shame.

However, there's always the other side... I never managed to get TI to work properly with my setup. I've had better times over the years and worse ones. Right now it is (touch wood) working quite well. I have it attached to a Caldigit TB3 hub and it is on it's own USB 3.1 bus. The thing that I just cannot seem to fix are a few random pops/crackles. These are sporadic and not too bad. The other involves playing arp patterns with delays. Every now and again the arp looses sync, the delay wobbles and obviously resynchronises. Some years ago, Access kindly changed the mainboard in an effort to fix this, but alas the problem still happens. I have tried everything I can think of:

• This is repeatable on a MPB 2017 15", A MacPro 2008 tower and a 2011 iMac,
• The MBP is on 10.14.6 LogicX 10.5.1 (Last version to work on Mojave),
• Tried many USB cables (5 ones I have here) same deal,
• Tried using Virus as the core audio device, and my Fireface UFX, same result,
• Tried outputting a spdif from RME to a CO2 converter and then coax spdif to virus to "help" clocking,
• Use Ableton Live 11, same.

I guess my question is, is it really possible to get perfection here. Does anyone ever get consistent, reliable audio transmission all the time? I mean, if I knew for a fact it was the hardware I would consider coughing up and getting a Darkstar TI2. But I have gone through many many threads here and there still appears that some people get trouble on the newer models. I also know there's many who have understandably given up, and gone hardware only or use MI editor etc. That is an option, but I kinda love having the TI editor/librarian and am happy to keep my laptop running Mojave just for the purpose.

In my unscientific approach, I somewhat doubt that "perfect" operation is possible all the time. Maybe some don't notice some of the clicks, or some sounds don't rely on arps and delays all the time. Maybe I'm wrong here, maybe I truly have a dud and always have. The thing is, it's always seemed to work fine as a hardware synth which leads me to believe it's a clocking issue. Either USB transmission, or a mismatch between Logic sending a clock and the TI receiving it. The TI does behave better when it is receiving playback from the sequencer rather than live input but it still happens. I've considered buying a ridiculously expensive USB cable as some audiophiles swear by them. Others say it's snake oil and makes little to no difference...

Sorry for the long post, I just wanted to get my feelings out and see if anyone else can offer any insight at all. Am I asking for too much here, is the Virus just a flawed diamond that I should give up on, use as hardware and forget the TI, or is it, really, truly possible to fix? Sometimes I just wish I had the money to go out, buy 2 or 3 and just test my theories!

All the best,

Michael

I guess not Well, once again I've done a complete and utter re-install with the latest Yosemite (10.10.4) Logic Pro 10.1.1 and the problem remains. As I've already had my main board of my Virus TI Polar replaced, I'm coming to narrow down the conclusions, either:

My Mac Pro has a hardware problem - possible, it has been rock solid for 7 years.
There is something in the Virus other than the mainboard which is causing this. USB chipset or power supply springs to mind.

Please... Help

Hi,

I have narrowed down one issue that happens to me everytime I use my Virus. I am a long sufferer of problems with my Virus and still do. One issue that is reoccurring every time is that the pitch of a patch suddenly drops and then picks up momentarily. This action co-incides with this message in my OS X console overtime without fail:

10/07/2015 11:08:09.483 Console[484]: Failed to connect (_consoleX) outlet from (NSApplication) to (ConsoleX): missing setter or instance variable.

Does this mean anything at all to anyone!

I would like to know how come I have sent you many many emails and you appear not to want to respond

Hi Marc,

Any updates on this.

This doesn't sound like the issue of free-running oscillators causing this. Free-running oscs are great for keeping the chord/detuning interactions natural on repeated notes. Most times this is great, other times, as has been said - phase init is good to restart the waveform for more percussive and predictable results.

However another issue is here too. When you play too many multitimbral sounds concurrently on a Virus TI, the sound quality suffers. I hear it often with lfo control rate resolution, envelope 3/4 control rate resolution. How much you hear this depends on what sounds are playing together. and maybe even at what stage the sound is at. Snappy envelopes, fast lfos, recursive modulation probably require momentary bouts of dsp power whereas the rest of the patch may not.

Maybe if Access implemented some more fixed limits wrt polyphony as opposed to ragging the DSP to overload this wouldn't happen. However, I guess the quoted polyphony would drop in order of magnitude, which from a marketing perspective would be a no no. However, my ears don't lie to me, I can hear these inconsistencies in the sound produced in a multitimbral situation.

One way you can see if this is your problem is to track down each part one at a time and mix, then compare this to the TI playing it all out "live" so to speak.

Zitat von Totty

Thanks Marc,

I'll be in touch on support. May be a few days due to other commitments much appreciated.

Michael

Hi Marc, I've sent 2 emails, had no reply. Would like to get some help on this.

Many thanks

Thanks Marc,

I'll be in touch on support. May be a few days due to other commitments much appreciated.

Michael

Hi thetechnobear,

I feel your pain, I really really do

On your specific issues:

• spdif - I've never attempted to use the spdif on my Virus so I can't really add much to that I'm afraid...
  

  
  

• Midi timing - I may be able to add some info on this, although as I've predominantly been working in VC, I've never pushed the Virus over regular midi. However I have "previous" with a Roland JV2080. A couple of things - sorry if I'm teaching you to suck eggs but here goes:
  

  
  

  Midi is always serial so events/notes will never occur together, but rather as a fast burst of events. Depending on the types of sounds played this could be noticeable if many midi notes are played sequentially.

  
  

  When I had a JV2080 years ago I learnt that if certain simultaneous events occurred on a patch with snappy envelopes and/or lots of modulation that the timing would get worse, in the case of the 2080 to the point that it was so noticeable it was unusable for certain sounds. My theory which was partially acknowledged by Roland at the time was that the sound engine/dsp could only cope with a certain amount of complexity in the patches before something had to give. After this, envelopes seemed to loose resolution, timing would be sloppy as the dsp was choking on processing data, lfos would become coarser and rougher in their cyclic motion and overall sound quality and timing suffered. In this case of the Virus, it's a different synth with totally different architecture, but I have an inkling that some of what I've said above holds true. I've heard a fast lfo on one of my patches audibly change when another part was playing (only 2 parts). To hear it more I reduced the volume of the other patch and then muted/unmuted it - I could here the lfo control rate audibly suffer when played together. This was in VC. As VC is sample accurate, the synth is "forced" to play simultaneous events together and, depending on patch complexity this may or may not be noticeable. With midi, it's possible that events could be "loosened" slightly to work around this - but yeah this is pure speculation. I guess without this sort of optimisation, the polyphony would be much lower overall as the dsps would always have to account for the possibility of the most complex sort of patches playing together.

  
  

• 44khz/48khz issues - I'm mainly sticking to 44k atm with VC piped via usb and output on my Fireface, but I've had mixed success with 48k.

Like you, I'm not attempting to beat up on Access, I appreciate what a tough job it must be to chase a moving OS target with drivers etc. The reason why I'm still persevering after 7 years is that I love the Virus sound, it hasn't tired on me and I want to use it as much as I did when I first got it, however from time to time it all gets me totally frustrated. In fact until this January I had it boxed up for 6 months or so, but I keep coming back

Hi, I'm back I tried what you said Marc and possibly it sorts out playback but no word of a lie, less than a minute into playing back a looped sequence there's a click and then the pitch wobbles down and up again (as if resynchronising).

Whilst I appreciate your advice Marc, this hasn't resolved the cause of my core issue of this sporadic loss in pitch stability and the click(s) that go with it. If I knew for sure that a TI2 fixed this issue, I would buy one, but as there is no evidence I can see on this forum or others that this is the case, it's one hell of a gamble to make with 2k, even if I sold my TI1...

Maybe some don't notice this (I can't imagine how) or there are some of us with some sort of clocking hardware fault - magikroom being one, and another person I discussed with on Gearslutz who had the same issue with a TI1 and a Snow and now only uses the analog outs.

How do I know? I don't have the answer. Maybe Marc you could advise me if you think it may be a solvable issue by sending in for service, or whether there this is definitely something to do with USB communication and not hardware related. I appreciate you can't diagnose this on a forum, but you guys must have a good amount of research into various known troubles with the TI over the years and what their causes are. I sometimes wonder if something was silently fixed on the TI2 line wrt clocking. That is pure speculation on my part, but I have only straws left to grasp to with this.

Cheers

Thanks Marc, I'm on holiday this week but one back I'll give what you said above a try.

Cheers

Michael

Hi Marc. ok I’ve done a brand new install, absolutely nothing on my machine apart from:

OSX Mavericks 10.9.2
Logic Pro X 10.0.5
VC 5.0.8.00

No audio interface - in my case RME UFX (which was using Firewire) so I've directly connected my TI to my monitors.
Virus TI Polar 1 connected to middle USB port at back, no other USB at rear connected so Virus has own port and is not sharing with the Bluetooth controller built in.
Apple Keyboard & Apple Wired Mouse on USB via top front USB port.
WIFI disabled, Bluetooth disabled

In Logic X
Usual process buffer range to small
Latency comp to all (the default)
No other plugins loaded
Bit Accurate driver used - the core audio version has horrendous latency
Resulting latency @ 128 samples is 14.5 roundtrip / 8.2ms output

I’m totally out of ideas. At one stage I played some notes - no output was perceived for about 250ms (that’s my human estimate!) then the notes came, with the usual (in my case at least) pitch wobble resynchronisation. I cannot believe that no one else wouldn’t notice this - even if there is no delay in the patch the click is regularly audible, so on that point I have to say I guess I have a dud Problem is this has taken an inordinate amount of my time and I feel pretty peeved about that. A lot of people I speak to say to just use it with old skool midi and be done with it, but I totally want the total integration I don’t want to give up but man, how much time and effort is reasonable to get this working for me.

I have one more roll of the dice before I get a new MacBookPro in a few months, My really old MBP… That one will take a little more time as it’s not solely mine! Will come back when I get a chance.

Cheers

Not at all Marc, If you can get it working, it's great that it can be done and gives me hope, especially on a practically identical machine to mine.

To be clear I have the apple installed Bluetooth and Wifi with my machine and an upgraded ATI Radeon HD 5770 as my old graphics card died. This may be totally be irrelevant but who knows.

For me though I've struggled over the years, sometimes thinking things were better only to find I was back to square one. I am going to attempt a complete reinstall of my entire machine to be absolutely sure that it's no erroneous driver or process causing a problem.

Not withstanding, support said to me that there was nothing that can be done to change the autosave in Logic x pretty much alluding to the fact it may be an issue. I'll report back once I've gone through a reinstall.

Cheers

Zitat von Marc

you know, i have a Mac Pro from 2008 myself. it is on mavericks and the virus software for a polar 2 is on 5.0.8. - i was working on a demo song for a future virus soundset yesterday for most of the day. i used logic x, so i guess we can say that we share a very similar setup. the demo song consists of a virus running on 16 parts and loads of instances running kontakt for the orchestra percussion. 44.1k, not 48k.
but i didn't discover what you discover. maybe because i spend some to find out what USB port works best for me. i didn't have a single connection loss and i didn't have a single instance where the keyboard wasn't sending notes anymore. don't get me wrong, i don't want to rub it in or show off what a great working setup i have but you might want to acknowledge as well that things are not as easy and reproducible as they might sound.
marc

Zitat von Marc

please elaborate.
thanks, marc

I take that back - rude was the wrong word and I apologise for that. Aloof is a better description. Every time I contact support I have the impression that many of the issues I've experienced are known about and it takes great lengths to get a tangible response.

I've noticed a few issues with my TI 1 Polar, some different under Mavericks.

I do get the TI sporadically loosing connection, often when things are first started up, or later if the daw settings are changed - in my case Logic X. When using 48k this morning I did here some crunchy hiss in the signal path, so I can confirm this one.

I don't tend to run at 48k so I haven't had too much of an issue there. In my experience the TI experience appears more stable under Live 9. The stability I describe is a reduction of clicks whilst playing back or just programming in VC. I say reduction as I've still experienced a few.

In Logic X I get regular but intermittent clicks upon playback and programming. This type of click I am 80-90% sure is an interruption TI/VC communication over USB. The core result of this audible click is a "wobble" of pitch (as if the tempo/timing info is being resynchronised) along with any delay line present exacerbating the problem.

I have wasted many countless hours conducting many experiments to find the root cause of this, a job which should be left to Access to do I might add. The cause I found to be most likely in my situation, was saving a project in Logic X. Before I go further can I be clear on one thing, as this took me a while to communicate to support - I never would expect any DAW to reliably carry on playing whilst saving, however Logic X "autosaves" in the application background whilst running. After going backwards and forwards with support it became clear Access were aware of this and have no solution to the issue, save for asking Apple to allow this autosave functionality to be an optional setting - I won't hold my breath on that one!

Now I haven't heard of anyone else noticing this behaviour, so it leaves me to the following conclusion:

This "issue" may only affect certain Macs - mine is a 2008 vintage Mac Pro. Perhaps newer systems running on SSDs don't block the computer I/O bus whilst conducting an autosave as much as on older hardware. Unless someone else confirms this, I will find out in a few months when I upgrade to a MBP. I have tried all the usual BS with checking my USB setup and it's on it's own bus. I'm tempted to see if a PCIe card would help but as I'm close to relegating my tower to server duties I probably won't.

Anyways, thought I'd add this here in case some other poor guinea pig has the misfortune of trying to work this one out.

Spoke too soon, now it's all over the place. Man, If I didn't love the sound of the Virus I would sell it in a heartbeat.

Static pops and crackles in the left output (through the plugin) it has lost sync and now is dropping notes...

Oh the other thing I forgot to say is that my TI certainly behaves better when it isn't the audio interface... I'm running mine into a Fireface UFX and this seems to work nicely - touch wood. I still have static clicking on my inputs though on occasion, but I was never gonna send it back for repair to pay £500 for the privilege, especially as support bordered on rude with me.

Zitat von optik

Hi guys,

I've finally realised that at least on my machine, there is a pretty serious conflict with Google Chrome (the web browser) and Cubase/Virus (Windows X64)

If I have Chrome running in the background I am usually unable to export in real-time without getting CPU overload errors - when I quit Chrome, the Virus exports much better, without causing errors.

Also, if chrome is running I tend to experience weird timing issues, like the virus latency increasing massively - without Chrome running in the background, these issues almost completely go away.

There appears to be some conflict with Chrome and Cubase/Virus on my machine, hopefully this will help someone else. I know you are supposed to have just audio stuff running on your DAW, but this is not always possible, and this conflict cost me loads of time and I have finally worked it out - now my production time is far more productive!

T Shark

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Very interesting, I've just got my TI up and running after shoving it in a box for a year as I'd had enough of "issues" with it. So far on OSX Mavericks it's been quite good, the odd click here, but this afternoon I took your advice and achieved some great sync with no dropouts. While this is encouraging I'm always waiting for the next screw up with it. It's like a self fulfilled prophecy that it will go wrong at some point