Access virus vst plugin!?!?

    WOW had a play about with u-he Diva and it sounds AMAZING for a software synth! Would Access ever consider doing a completely software version of the virus? If it sounded anywhere as good as the real thing id ditch my hardware in a blink as the problems are endless! ;)

    Zitat von jrob6716

    it would not sound nearly as good as the TI sounds..


    Hm, if the software stays the same, it should be right. Basically it is only a matter of calculation power, whereby it might be an enourmous work to change a DSP software to optimized Intel or MAC code. I recently did that for a radar app moving the firmware of formerly used 8 ADSPs to on INTEL core running on a VPX. Works perfect.


    Theoretically you could run every music software on a large PC and with current 64Bit OS they should have also enough speed for that, but I doubt if it makes sence to do so. CPUs for PCs and also their hardware (especially RAM) is not really optimized for signal processing and most probably will never be. PC based apps are usually low cost versions in comparison to dedicated DSP hardware. Also even with 64Bit MCUs current PC music platforms seem to be busy already processing the host app :)


    If synthesizers had more demand to operate in parallel, GPU usage was another idea, but as I found with another recent project, the GPU also becomes quickly expensive too or you have to add an extra device of it, if you want to have relevant power.


    I could imagine running more SynthSoftware on anonymous DSP hardware inside PCs, since PCI offers much better integration and a higher data speed interface than accessing outboard. On the other hand, USB 3.0 has all to quickly interlink any hadware to your music host PC.
    I guess a soft synth won't be much cheaper anyway (as long as you pay for it and do not use cracked sw), and if you add a good midi controller and ADC/DAC hardware and the 30% price of the PC the softsynth occupies, you almost have the price of a hw synth.

    Dont mean to piss on your parade however the Virus has a unique sound because it comes from hardware. I don't use it over USB however so its possible this is while I experience it this way. I use traditional methods of recording the synth into my DAW when it comes time to print the audio. To me I love the sound coming from the outputs through my gear. I also like the fact it has its own dedicated DSP = Awesome

    Zitat von jrob6716

    Dont mean to piss on your parade however the Virus has a unique sound because it comes from hardware. I don't use it over USB however so its possible this is while I experience it this way. I use traditional methods of recording the synth into my DAW when it comes time to print the audio. To me I love the sound coming from the outputs through my gear. I also like the fact it has its own dedicated DSP = Awesome


    Yes, it's amazing what a difference there is between the USB and the analog outs. It's as if it's an entirely different synthesizer. I'm somewhat surprised, really, that Access added the USB feature, because it really makes the Virus not sound like a Virus at all.


    To tell the truth, I only recently discovered for myself what a difference it makes.


    I was collaborating with some friends (guitarists, but otherwise good guys) a few weeks ago, and sent them a few tracks, some of which had been recorded through the USB output, and some through the analog, as I was trying out different workflows. Needless to say, I was really surprised when my friends asked me why some tracks sounded so different! I didn't expect to hear anything like that, especially given the general busyness of the music, but they pinned this right out without me even mentioning what I'd done!


    What they actually asked me was if I had gotten some new synthesizer or if I were perhaps using some cheap VST plugin, and suggested I should just stick to using the Virus, because hardware beats software and analog beats digital, even if the hardware is running software and the analog is a conversion of a digital signal.


    At first I was a little offended that these guitarists, that know nothing of synthesis or sound design, were telling me what to do, but you know what? I did a little A-B testing, and I was astonished at the difference, it was truly night and day.


    In the end, I rerecorded it all with the analog outs, and it really does sound amazingly better.


    Afterward, we had what I can say was a very enlightening discussion about tube amps vs solid state amps and how the old analog effects pedals are still better than all the digital stuff being pushed on guitarists nowadays. I must confess, it sounds like they are having a really rough time of it, and I can only say that I am glad that I play synthesizers and don't have to deal with manufacturers trying to trick me into buying products that attempt to emulate the real sound of the hardware of yesteryear via software and other cheap tricks.

    I also use the Analog outs on my TI2 its far superior sound wise, and less troublesome than using USB audio via Virus. I cant see the point in cluttering and overloading the USB bus with Audio & Midi data.. when VC over usb and audio out the analog outs is a better option. I know some people experience latency using this method but works great with my setup using reaper DAW and an Edirol UA-1000.


    Analog outs are still digital signals converted to Analog signals, its just bypassing the USB stage of the Virus and sending to the analog ports instead, reducing bandwidth on virus USB port thus enabling faster transfer of sync/midi data and reducing glitching, sync probs etc... so better sound & better sync simply by avoiding using USB audio...


    Keep it analog as much as possible 8)

    Zitat von muzikman2008

    Analog outs are still digital signals converted to Analog signals, its just bypassing the USB stage of the Virus and sending to the analog ports instead, reducing bandwidth on virus USB port thus enabling faster transfer of sync/midi data and reducing glitching, sync probs etc... so better sound & better sync simply by avoiding using USB audio...


    From what I understand (someone correct me on this), the USB bandwidth is reserved from the moment you fire up the Virus TI VST plugin. Whether you use the USB audio channels or not doesn't change the fact that the bandwidth is still being used (in this case, to transmit digital silence)... So I'm not sure that changes anything with regards to freeing up the USB bandwidth for MIDI Sync etc.


    Using the analog outs does have advantages though :)


    Mel.

    if USB bandwidth is reserved or not, surely the amount of traffic going through the Virus USB port is important in that the "less" data going through that port the better it is for your PC/mac/DAW?? it seems to me that a lot of users are experiencing drop out of the audio because of the limited bandwidth of the virus' USB being limited to USB 1.0 ?? yes, i know this has been discussed a million and one times on these forums, but its a logical reason for drop outs on most users set ups, be it Poor PC/Mac specs, or just general lack of users setting up their computers correctly to accommodate virus control or whatever... its a tricky problem, as some users have fast machines some have slow old useless machines.. i ALWAYS SAY and will continue to say so, if you want to use a virus with a computer, RE-INSTALL THE OPERATING SYSTEM as i can only "assume" access try their software releases on a clean machine and no other software that is going to affect their software will influence the reliability of Virus control..etc..


    I drifted off topic there but, i hope you can see where im coming from... its not a simple "one solution suits all" with Virus users... this "total integration" claim is not all rosy and utopian as they want us to beleive im afraid... it takes a lot of work trying to get your system working as it should, some of us can work out the problems, some cant, but i feel like Access are pushing this problem under the carpet, which alienates a lot of new users, and could back fire on them.. but what can access do? tricky one!...


    Im very happy with my Virus, ok yeah.. it has minor issues you would not expect for a £1800 synth, but it sounds F****NG AWESOME! and thats why i love it. everything else is just a bonus to me.


    Anyway... enough ranting... use the Analog outs, its much much much much nicer... to my ears at any rate :o)

    Oh I pretty much agree on all points ! :) I just wanted to clarify something that had stood out for me out of all the stuff on both forums since it's pretty logical from an computer science point of view (and I do know a bit about that). But indeed maybe not using that bandwidth, even though it *is* reserved, does help reducing the USB MIDI jitter and stuff.
    The Virus is a very sensitive piece of hardware where its USB connection is concerned and like most people I've been struggling with it since I bought it in 2009. I've been able to find a pretty much stable state of things the past few years with my current PC hardware (which is a custom built PC for gaming originally) after having searched for the best USB port combination. I mostly only get the MIDI jitter these days.
    I think the TI is plagued by the fact that no two USB chips are equal, and you can apply the same reasoning to USB drivers, cables, operating systems versions, etc.
    Now what I do wonder is why my RME audio interface, which is also USB has always worked flawlessly... The virus' analog outs sound beautiful on it ^^

    Just a few notes I wanted to make regarding this issue:
    1. The audio streams are reserved only when VC is loaded. Sending MIDI to the "Virus synth" port without VC loaded should be less taxing on the USB connection, as would reducing the number of outputs on VC's configuration page.
    2. It could be that the audio interface you mention uses USB2 or even 3. Since the Virus uses USB1.1 not only that its ceiling is lower, if it connects to a single-TT hub/chip along with other USB1.1 devices they will have to fight each other over the leftovers. It's also true that the VC checks the bandwidth before it starts, but it cannot anticipate sudden bursts from neighboring devices that make it loose its stability.
    3. While MIDI needs only to send a short note on message, and a short note off message, raw audio has to send sound data all that while. Any delays or drop outs in the data will make the audio data non continuous which in our ears translates to crackle. MIDI data will just not play at the exact millisecond we wanted it to which in most cases is unnoticeable, and at worst we'll get a hanging note.

    Point 1 is pretty much what I'd understood too and what what I was meaning in my first post.
    Point 2: the Fireface UC is indeed USB 2 so I guess that explains how it manages to send so many audio channels at the same time. I'd forgotten the Virus TI is only USB 1.1 (let's hope Access's next gen hardware, if it does keep the TI feature, will use higher bandwidth serial interfaces). I solved my bandwidth throttling issues by having the Virus and other hardware on separate USB hubs (the ones integrated on my PC motherboard). That's what I was meaning when I said I had to troubleshoot through all the possible USB port combinations.

    Zitat von noct

    Yes, it's amazing what a difference there is between the USB and the analog outs.


    Could you describe the differences? The digital <udio from USB should be the same, except the effects introduced by the internal DA-stages. This finally means, you compare the virus's DAC to another one you used to listen to the digital data. (WHICH?)

    That's impossible I think. It would be solution to many problems! I have noticed that the sound is different with midi input.
    The waveform looks totally different if you compare it to USB. It would be nice if VC allows midi in!

    jarh - VSTs (including VC) communicate via Midi - so yes you can take midi from Virus Synth and send it to VC.. and then in VC you can select analogue outputs to record the audio via a audio interface.
    and yes the waveforms will look different, as one is being passed back via the ADC -> DAC , so is not as pure as the digital form via USB or SPDIF. (wether you like the purity is a matter of taste etc :) )

    Zitat von thetechnobear

    jarh - VSTs (including VC) communicate via Midi - so yes you can take midi from Virus Synth and send it to VC.. and then in VC you can select analogue outputs to record the audio via a audio interface.
    and yes the waveforms will look different, as one is being passed back via the ADC -> DAC , so is not as pure as the digital form via USB or SPDIF. (wether you like the purity is a matter of taste etc :) )



    Sorry I dini't express my self clearly... I don't want use USB as midi source, because there is jitter or something else, that makes the sound different. I have made test's so that midi goes to VC, and then to the analog output of the synth to my RME Fireface 400 input.
    The other test was so, that the midi comes from RME and controls Virus TI, goes back to the RME input. So the only change is the midi control. I highly recommend to try it! :)


    So what I meant, was that I can't use VC only change sound's, automations (when the midi is coming from RME) which is much easier and you can save project's with sounds etc..

    It would be nice to have optional VC which allows this! :)

    sorry i don't really understand this...


    are you saying you are trying to use the physical midi in on the virus to control the virus while its in VC mode?


    if so, i can confirm that doesn't work, in fact it doesn't work if you have the USB plugged in at all... physical midi is 'disables' when USB is connected.


    actually this is 'incorrect'... when the USB is connected the midi ports become extensions of the USB interface, the virus becomes a midi interface
    i.e. Virus MIDI becomes active, this means you can send midi messages to devices connected to the Virus
    (I don't like this either, but this is what it is)


    Ive done a lot of testing with the virus and midi, over both usb and physical - and the performance of the ubs interface is much better than the physical,
    I think this is purely down to data rates support on midi cables.


    and I really don't think the sound is any different, the only difference i hear is using the analogue outs vs digital... not what you use as a control source.
    (of course if your usb is jittery then yes I can imagine it would make a difference)